MMS #83 - Reimagining Sales Leadership: Strategies for Today’s Market with David Priemer

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Mastering Modern Selling relationships

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social and AI in the buyer-centric age.

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Join host Brandon Lee, founder of Fistbump, alongside

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Microsoft's number one social seller, carson V Heddy and Tom

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Burton, author of the Revenue Zone and co-founder of LeadSmart

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, as we explore the strategies and stories behind successful

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executives and sales professionals.

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Dive into business growth, personal development and the

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pursuit of excellence with industry leaders.

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Whether you're a seasoned executive or an aspiring leader,

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this podcast is your backstage pass to today's business

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landscape.

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Speaker 2: This is Mastering Modern Selling, brought to you

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by Fistbump Brought to you by.

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Speaker 3: Fistbump.

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So we are at 72, right 83.

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Speaker 2: 83.

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Speaker 3: You know what?

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I actually I thought 82.

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I don't know why I said 72.

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83.

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Speaker 3: Of mastering modern selling.

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That is what we call this, brandon, just so you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

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I thought I was going to place an order at McDonald's here for

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a second.

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That's how my day has been.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, welcome, Good to have you.

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Sorry Carson's not with us today.

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I know he has some family things he's taking care of, but

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we have another awesome guest, david Premer.

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David welcome.

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Speaker 4: Hey, great to be with you here.

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Thanks for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: Can I do this?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Good product placement.

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Speaker 2: Just do that for the whole show, if that's okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's better than my face.

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Speaker 2: Tom, do you mind if I kick this off a little?

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Speaker 3: bit no, please, please.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to go off script.

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So I found David's book, and this is his older book.

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He's got a new one coming out.

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We're going to talk about that as well.

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But I read this book and I couldn't put it down because I

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kept going yeah, yeah, you see all my dog ear pages and my

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notes and everything.

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Oh yeah, yeah, oh, I got to remember that.

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Oh yeah, that's right.

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What I love, david, is you took all of your experience and

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you've got amazing experience, but you've turned it into

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something very logical and practical and I feel like a lot

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of times books and and and consultants speak is is very

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rigid, like oh, and this is what , and in a in a in a real world

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situation, or in a in a in a in a classroom or when, when you're

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writing things up on the whiteboard, it all sounds good,

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but this got back down to a lot of practical stuff for me, like

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just remember the fact that there's human beings on the

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other side and they don't want to be treated any other way.

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Is that a fair way of kind of summarizing my fan boy speak?

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Speaker 4: A hundred percent.

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Well, my gosh, where do we start?

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I mean this, all this all came to be when I was working at

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Salesforce.

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So I was just, you know, like, like Tom, I'm startup sales guy.

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You know, did these four tech startups and my third one ends

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up getting acquired by Salesforce, which is how I got

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to work there, and I used to run at Salesforce.

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At the end of my tenure there, I used to run small business

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sales for the Eastern US at Salesforce.

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So I had all these like young, enthusiastic sales reps and what

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I found was the tactics that they were executing in the field

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not unethical, not categorically ineffective, but

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as a VP at Salesforce, people were prospecting into me all the

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time.

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People wanted to sell me stuff, and so I found that a lot of

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the tactics that people were using on me were things I was

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having no part of.

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I wasn't answering my phone unless it was an internal call

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that I could see.

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Not responding to cold outreach on email, LinkedIn, anything

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like that, and I'm like my team is doing the same thing, Like

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the same thing, that I'm not responding to.

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That's what they're doing.

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So I kind of went back to my.

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I was a research scientist before.

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I got into sales many years ago and I said you know what,

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there's got to be a better way.

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So I took it really intentionally in terms of like

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figuring out, like what are the pathways and mechanisms by which

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human beings make purchasing decisions?

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How can we, ironically, use science to be more human in our

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sales interactions?

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And that's kind of that was the catalyst for this journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 3: I have a couple of questions and yeah, loha to Bob.

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Good to see him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah shout out, shout out to Bob and anyone else Hold

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your thought for a second, tom, because, because I got so

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excited, I skipped the beginning where you'd say welcome to

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everybody.

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Put in the comments.

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You know who, where you're from .

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Please join with comments and tell everybody.

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Put your comments in, because David's going to be a great

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source of information, so I'd love for you all to participate

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and get you involved.

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Speaker 3: So, david, what year were you at Salesforce, like

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roughly, when was that?

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When you were there?

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Speaker 4: 2012 to 2017.

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So when, I joined, salesforce was about 6 employees and

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when I left they were about 24 or 25 employees.

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Speaker 3: So you were there right at the heart of the

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predictable revenue craze.

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Right, I mean predictable revenue Aaron Ross's book that

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came directly out of Salesforce and I assume that was a key part

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of your play playbook, or was it part of the playbook at the

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time?

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And how did you mold what you were finding with the

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predictable revenue playbook?

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Speaker 4: it's funny.

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So I'm a fan of the predictable revenue playbook.

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It was something that we started implementing at the

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company before I worked at salesforce.

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But here's here's kind of like the big problem and where I

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focus and where I continue to focus.

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It's funny because now, when it comes to sales technology,

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there's all these tools there's like AI, this and

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personalization at scale, and all these things that we can do

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more so than ever before, and yet the data shows that it's

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actually taking more connection, attempts to interact with a

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customer than it ever has.

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The average age and experience level and tenure of a new

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salesperson is lower than it's ever been, and so the data shows

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that we're worse at sales than we were before, even with all of

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these things.

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And so I said it's great that you have all this technology,

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but at the end of the day, for any kind of sophisticated sale

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or big concerted purchase, it involves a human being talking

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to another human being and some kind of discourse happening in

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the decision being made, even if you use technology to figure

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out, like what their phone number is and who to reach out

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to all that kind of stuff.

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So it very much comes down to that human interaction and

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that's where I spend a lot of time.

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What do we say?

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How do we describe what we do?

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How do we do good discovery and handle objections and negotiate

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and doing all these things?

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But there's a very human element to what I do.

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In my view, that's the frontier .

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That's the biggest problem that we need to solve as a sales

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community.

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Speaker 3: So was that more where you were going with the

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previous book or is that more on the latest book?

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Tell us a little bit about your books and kind of what the key

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points were, and of course we'll talk about the latest one here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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So the first one, sell the Way you Buy, was all about kind of

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like the science and empathy based sales tactics.

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So like number one, don't use tactics that wouldn't work on

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you, but also like be really curious about the pathways and

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mechanisms, as I said, by which human beings make purchasing

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decisions.

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When you say it like this, they get it.

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When they say it.

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When you say it like that, their eyes glaze over and they

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don't get it, you know.

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So that's really what sell the way you buy is all about, and I

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kind of put all of the tactics that we think of in sales from

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messaging like discovery, objection handling through that

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lens, because and we were kind of talking about this in the

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pre-show One of the reasons why sales get such a bad rap is

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because we go out there and we execute these tactics that are

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based in nothing other than this is the way we've always done it

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Like.

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This is just the history In my book.

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The first chapter in Sell the Way you Buy is called the Cobra

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Kai Paradox, which for many people.

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I'm 48 years old, so when I was nine, the movie the Karate Kid

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comes out and I love the movie, but it tells a story of these

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jerk bully kids that learn karate from this person who

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teaches them the wrong way.

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And they're not bad kids, they're just doing it because

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that's what someone told them, and so that's what we've ended

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up with.

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In sales, we just do things like we were talking about, off

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the top, this robotic language.

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We send people emails using words that human beings don't

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say to each other because that's what our marketing department

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gave us and like isn't that the playbook?

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And the answer is like no, you're talking to another human

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being.

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Like sound like a human being, and it's funny that we have to,

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you know, teach people how to do this.

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Anyway, so that's what Sell.

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The Way you Buy is all about.

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The sales leader they need is a little different.

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Bob feels old now.

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Speaker 3: He's saying yeah, don't worry, bob, you're

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probably not that old.

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So when did this book, that book, your first book, come out?

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Speaker 4: So it came out at the height of the pandemic of April

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, even, you know, then it then it became easier as people

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started investing especially in B2B technology, in cloud

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technologies, because we couldn't see each other and all

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that kind of stuff, and it got a little easier.

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And unfortunately that tends to obfuscate during good times,

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obfuscate some of the challenges that we actually have with our

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sales motion.

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And so now you're seeing, especially in the last couple of

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years, as sales has gotten much harder, the stuff that used to

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work doesn't anymore, and so a lot of organizations are going

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back to the drawing board saying , shoot, like we can't run those

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old sales playbooks anymore because they just don't work

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Right, and so the appetite for these new tactics is has been

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great.

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Speaker 3: So we talk about this all the time.

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And but I mentioned in your take, why do you think sales has

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gotten harder?

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Speaker 4: well, you know, when you think about just adversity

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in the market, unless you were selling in 2008 during the last

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financial crisis, like you, everything has been kind of up

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into the rightish, you know, since then.

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You know, especially in technology, with the growth of

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cloud technologies and companies migrating, like, everyone is

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looking for these.

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You know these new solutions and, in general, people have

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money to spend on these solutions.

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But now it's getting harder because, you know, with

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recession fears and in rising interest rates, company budgets

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are getting tighter.

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You know, with recession fears and in rising interest rates,

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company budgets are getting tighter.

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Some of this stuff is actually, you know, legit.

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You know in terms of, you know, downsizing and layoffs and all,

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but some of it is preemptive fears.

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You know we, oh, we can't raise money, we can't, and so what's

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happening now is companies don't have as much money to spend.

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There's like the fear in the market.

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They're trying to do more with less and they think to

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themselves that the problems that they're encountering aren't

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so hard.

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They can just solve them on their own.

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It reminds me of in my younger days, when we're expecting a

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starter home, expecting our first kid, and, like leaky

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faucet, I'm like, oh, I can fix that, why not?

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I don't have to pay someone to fix it.

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So I convinced myself that these are things that I can do

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and and.

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So that's what.

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That's what you're seeing now in the market in the face of all

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these solutions, and the number of solutions in the market is,

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you know I give this example all the time In 2011, there were

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150 marketing technologies available on the market.

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Now, for 2023, over 11, like it's grown by 70 times.

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Three over 11, like it's grown by 70 times.

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And so, as a buyer like I, don't know how to pick these

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solutions anymore, and so buying has become a lot more complex.

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Budgets are a lot tighter, there's a lot of fear in the

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market, and so it's not so easy.

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If you're one of these niche vendors, it's not like before,

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where you know, in the glory days, early 2000s, there's only

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so many solutions on the market.

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Now there's like a million solutions.

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In the glory days, early 2000s, there's only so many solutions

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on the market.

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Now there's like a million solutions.

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So how do we, as sellers, help our buyers navigate this complex

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environment where they don't have a lot of money and they

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think they can solve all their problems on their own?

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Speaker 2: That's why it's so hard?

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Speaker 3: now Go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Brandon, yeah, I was going to say it's.

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This whole ecosystem that we've all been a part of is

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interesting.

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There's so many things coming together.

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So the startup culture, the VC, the angel investor, all of that

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, the greed of capitalism.

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The people think they're going to start a company and become a

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unicorn.

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Even the fact that we have the term unicorn speaks to what's

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going on.

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It's created all kinds of noise , so it's made selling harder

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for everybody.

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And then there's this new thing out here that people like to

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forget about is the buyer journey has changed because

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buyer tools have changed.

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Right?

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We, we, as you said earlier I think it was during the show,

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maybe it was in the pre but you know, we don't.

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We don't take calls from people we don't know, because there's

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so many calls coming into us.

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We don't pay attention to cold email because there's so many

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emails coming into us.

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And so we've got these fears some warranted, some just, you

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know, emotional fears of we're not going to be able to raise

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money.

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Interest rates are going up, da , da, da, da da.

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And we've got this old school mentality and we've got what I

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call old school and old old school.

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We've got the most recent old school over the last 10 years of

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this I believe an anomaly that these tactics even worked

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messaging at scale, cold calling at scale, and that even worked.

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And now we've got this inflection point where all these

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things are coming together and there's just this collective oh

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shit moment and a lot of non-decisions because people are

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scared, they don't know what to do.

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Is that?

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Do you guys think that's a fair assessment too, based on what

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David was saying don't know what to do.

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Do you guys think?

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Speaker 3: that's a fair assessment too, based on what

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David was saying.

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Yeah, I think, and I want to.

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I heard you say a couple of things, david.

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I do agree, right, that the economic, the macro level

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conditions are obviously very different now than they were two

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or three years ago, especially in the tech space, which was

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fueled by a lot of external money.

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But I think what you also said and we talk a lot about this on

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the show is the noise level has gotten higher and higher and

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higher.

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So you have to be way, way more intelligent and creative to

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rise above the noise, right, and even if you were buying a lot,

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even if the economy picks up the noise level with AI and all

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these other things that are going on I mean, look at social,

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brandon, I mean LinkedIn is getting noisier because of AI

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and some of these AI things.

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So social is getting noisier, everything's getting noisier.

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We've got to cut through that somehow and rise above the noise

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.

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I think that's what I heard you say, david is kind of a key

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part of the message in the book.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in fact, you know one of the things I talk

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about in the book.

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My last company was focused on what we called advocate

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marketing, which is this idea that, from a conversion rate

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perspective, if I make a recommendation to you, we're

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friends.

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I'm like, hey, you know what, you know who I went with for

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this solution.

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I went with you know this company, you're just going to go

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with that company, right.

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And so, like, these kinds of like trusted recommendations

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convert at a much higher rate than you know web and social,

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all that kind of stuff.

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And so, yes, like, the way people buy is certainly

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fundamentally changed, the other part of it as well.

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And there's like again, this is why I love sales, because it's

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so nuanced, like there's so many , it's like an engineering

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equation with so many variables, with all this like margin of

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error.

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Part of the other challenge is that as these solutions get more

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niche and they get more complex and the average age of a

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salesperson gets lower, one of the things I talk about in the

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book and I wrote an article in Harvard Business about this five

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years ago was this phenomenon that I noticed that when you

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take a young, enthusiastic salesperson, you give them like

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a high-tech solution and you tell them go call grownups I

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don't mean to use an unnecessarily juvenile example

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Go call grownups.

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Call the VP of sales, call the VP of marketing, call the CIO,

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call grownups whose job you've never done and I want you to

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tell them with a high level of conviction about how you're

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going to lead them into the future.

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That's a recipe for disaster.

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And you know what?

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It's funny because when I used to run small business for the

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Eastern US at Salesforce, I would have these reps, my New

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York City sales reps.

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They always hustled the most tons of calls, tons of emails,

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and I would have these reps that would have lots of activity,

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lots of flourish and no pipeline .

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So it's like, well, what's, what's going on?

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They're like I don't know, david, I'm doing all the things

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that you're telling me to do.

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So I would start listening to their calls and if I just I use

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this, I always say this I'm like if I close my eyes and I don't

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even care what the words are, I'm just listening, just to

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listen, just to hear what they say, and I'm like you know what?

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You sound like, tom.

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You sound like you're bothering this customer.

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You sound like one of my kids when they're about to hit me up

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for something that they think I'm going to say no to already

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you know, what I'm saying.

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I can hear the fear.

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You know, a couple of years ago my daughter was on the

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volleyball team at her high school and she comes to you know

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she's.

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She has this early morning practice she needs a lift too.

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That she totally forgot about.

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She comes down.

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She's like early morning practice, she needs a lift to.

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That she totally forgot about she comes down.

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She's like, um, dad, I'm like the answer is no, immediately

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like I'm immediately defensive forget it and so your tone, your

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approach, your conviction, your confidence plays a huge part in

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your ability to convert customers.

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And yet what we arm these and I say kids, but it's really

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everyone like salespeople with is, like product information,

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marketing, speak, all sorts of crap that your customers don't

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care about, especially when all of the other vendors in your

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space go out and they have oh, we're just like you, like we say

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the same thing, right, and so when a customer can't figure out

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what to do, they just shut down especially in the face of this

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lack of conviction.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like so, something I've been saying and

00:18:19
I believe to be true, and maybe I'm FOS, I don't know, but it's

00:18:21
over the last eight decade we've not trained a whole lot of

00:18:28
salespeople.

00:18:28
Now, a lot of our customers they're either Microsoft

00:18:31
partners and they they tend to be full cycle AEs.

00:18:35
They're manufacturing and they tend to be full cycle AEs.

00:18:38
And then there's some people in the tech space where you know,

00:18:42
our first job like my first job in sales was I was a full cycle

00:18:46
AE.

00:18:46
I had a small territory and I had small types of companies

00:18:51
where I couldn't do too much damage.

00:18:53
But I got to learn everything and I had to learn how to build

00:18:57
rapport, I had to learn how to ask questions and I got coached

00:19:00
and trained and did all that.

00:19:01
But I was kind of in a playground where if I made

00:19:03
mistakes it wasn't going to be a big challenge.

00:19:05
I feel like a lot of this in the tech space anyway, with SDRs

00:19:09
.

00:19:09
They haven't really been trained to sell, they were

00:19:12
trained to I don't even know if I want to call it prospect,

00:19:17
because it was this weird anomaly of the way that you

00:19:21
prospected to try and get people into a demo.

00:19:25
Is that accurate?

00:19:43
Speaker 3: Is that accurate and, if so, how is that playing out

00:19:46
now when the data shows lots of S, sdr and the efficiency?

00:19:49
If they get one meeting every month or something, that's not

00:19:54
really an efficient sales model.

00:19:56
Speaker 2: Right.

00:19:56
But my, my point is they haven't really learned how to

00:19:58
sell.

00:19:59
No, so as we, as we go into this next season and they think,

00:20:03
oh, I've got five years of sales experience, Do they Like?

00:20:10
Do they really they have SDR experience?

00:20:12
Like, if you're going to what I would call quote, kind of a

00:20:16
real company with full cycle AEs , I just don't think that

00:20:19
they're prepared, because it's a different motion.

00:20:22
Like, David, you were saying they're all prepared with you

00:20:24
know the product specs and value propositions and all that, but

00:20:27
they're not prepared to say hey, Mr and Ms Customer, what's

00:20:32
going on?

00:20:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they're not prepared to have like those

00:20:36
grown up conversations Because, again, like, what we arm them

00:20:39
with is like a very rigid script and a lot of product training,

00:20:42
like and they believe, okay, if we just talk about, like the

00:20:44
product they're going to did, you know, you know that we have

00:20:47
this platform that will enable you to do it.

00:20:49
And like no one cares, like they live, the customers live in

00:20:53
the world of of problems and we and sales people, for whatever

00:20:58
reason, we tend to live in the world of products and then we

00:21:00
just, you know, we try to pitch the product, as well as the fact

00:21:03
that a lot of the SDRs, like they're younger I mean this is

00:21:06
like it's the entry level sales job and, in many ways, like the

00:21:09
hardest job in sales.

00:21:10
We tell them to call again grownups, you know, learned

00:21:14
customers to talk about how we can help them, and we arm them

00:21:16
with product related information .

00:21:18
Like that's the recipe for disaster.

00:21:20
Now there are certain tactical elements of like how do you get

00:21:23
someone on the phone?

00:21:24
And like what do you say in the voicemail?

00:21:25
And like you know, those are things we can for sure teach

00:21:28
them, but you know, if you ask me, that's not why, you know, if

00:21:32
, if you're telling me an SDR is being unsuccessful, it's

00:21:34
probably not some of those tactical things, it's.

00:21:37
It's really like the meat of what they're saying.

00:21:38
Like you know, are you saying something that makes me want to

00:21:41
lean in and say this is really interesting.

00:21:43
You know, tell me more.

00:21:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're going to Tom.

00:21:47
Let's transition to some of the comments and then I want to

00:21:50
move.

00:21:51
I know a big portion of our audience too, david, is not from

00:21:54
the tech space.

00:21:55
They're not SDRs.

00:21:57
I want to move into and I think it's a lot of the content from

00:22:00
your new book about how are we leading and training salespeople

00:22:06
to be successful as we come into this, the trite term of the

00:22:10
new normal.

00:22:11
But it's just true.

00:22:12
We've got this new environment in front of us.

00:22:14
Buyers are different.

00:22:16
The way we can communicate with them is different.

00:22:18
We don't have as much face-to-face new, new, new.

00:22:22
Speaker 3: So, tom, which comments do you want to bring up

00:22:26
, because you definitely have some fans here?

00:22:29
David, from Melissa Hi.

00:22:31
Speaker 4: Melissa, good to see you.

00:22:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think we've ever been told we're

00:22:35
intelligent.

00:22:35
Brandon, this is great you know , definitely not.

00:22:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've been told I think I'm intelligent,

00:22:42
but that's different, right.

00:22:44
Speaker 3: And then I like Bob's comment here saying you know,

00:22:48
yes, it seems to be getting harder, but the root cause of

00:22:51
the problems are still human problems, right?

00:22:54
In other words, the problems that we're trying to sell

00:22:57
against or to spotlight today probably have a lot of

00:23:01
similarities to the things we were doing 10 years ago, 20

00:23:03
years ago, just obviously manifesting in a different way.

00:23:06
I think that's a really good point and I want to.

00:23:10
You know, butch, he's reminded that he was in sales 30 years

00:23:14
before Salesforce.

00:23:15
He's definitely OG of the group here.

00:23:17
And I want to hit Chris's comment as well is you know he's

00:23:24
right, right, what Chris is saying here is these concepts

00:23:27
make so much sense.

00:23:28
No wonder it's so damn hard.

00:23:29
It's just, it's just very simple.

00:23:31
Oh yeah.

00:23:32
Speaker 4: I say like if sales was so easy, we'd be paying high

00:23:35
school students minimum wage to do it.

00:23:36
You know, instead of you know really smart people a lot of

00:23:40
money to do it successfully.

00:23:42
Because you have to balance, like, all of these variables.

00:23:45
It's, it's.

00:23:46
It's kind of funny like I think about this and, anyways, I have

00:23:53
some new concepts brewing in my head.

00:23:53
But when you think about one of the problems that exist in

00:23:55
sales today, a lot of people think that they can solve their

00:23:57
own problems.

00:23:58
You know like, oh, I can fix that leaky faucet or I can

00:24:00
rewire my house, but you really couldn't.

00:24:02
And it's because of a psychological principle it's

00:24:06
known as the Dunning-Kruger effect, which tells us that the

00:24:09
skills that we need in order to be really good at something are

00:24:12
the same skills that we need to know that we're not good at that

00:24:15
thing.

00:24:15
So, for example, you might watch an Olympic swimmer on TV

00:24:20
or someone who does a sport that you used to do I think we were

00:24:23
talking about Brandon Badminton used to do.

00:24:26
Soccer, Soccer, shoot Soccer yeah, so you watch soccer?

00:24:31
Who plays badminton?

00:24:32
There was a client I was talking to who answered the

00:24:35
question and said badminton.

00:24:37
Speaker 3: I didn't know, brandon, you were into badminton

00:24:39
.

00:24:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's going to be a new thing.

00:24:40
So Brandon says, well, I used to play soccer, so we talked

00:24:44
about this.

00:24:44
Do you ever watch soccer on TV?

00:24:45
And you think to yourself, I know, those are pros doing this

00:24:50
thing, but like, but I can do that, I could do it, like I

00:24:52
could hang with them a little bit, Right, and the reality is,

00:24:55
like you could, you would.

00:24:56
You're nowhere near close.

00:24:57
I think you were saying you know , you, you kick the ball halfway

00:24:59
across the field and someone traps it, you know, underneath.

00:25:02
I'm like that's really hard, but it looks really easy when

00:25:05
they do it Right.

00:25:06
And so that's really what modern selling is Like.

00:25:09
When you see it done really well, it looks like nothing, it

00:25:13
looks like just a human being having a conversation, right.

00:25:15
But there's actually a lot of variables and number crunching

00:25:19
and all sorts of things that are happening beyond, you know, in

00:25:21
the background, that make it look so easy, right, but it's

00:25:24
obviously because I said off the top the reason I love sales

00:25:31
it's like an engineering formula with so many different

00:25:32
variables, with margins of error .

00:25:32
You know, I'm going toe to toe with you, I'm trying to prospect

00:25:34
into you.

00:25:35
You just had a fight, you know, with your spouse that morning.

00:25:38
Now you're on the phone with me .

00:25:39
Now you're in a bad mood, like I can't control that Right, but

00:25:42
yet you know I have to handle it .

00:25:43
Speaker 2: So anyways, that's that's one of the challenges and

00:25:46
that, yeah.

00:25:47
And then, in that nuance, like I can't remember where I read

00:25:50
this and if it's in your book, tell me.

00:25:53
It was somebody.

00:25:55
They had a first conversation with somebody and they got on

00:26:04
and because they didn't go right into their pitch, they said,

00:26:05
well, you know how's it going today, what's going on?

00:26:07
And the person said something about an issue kind of going on

00:26:08
with their family.

00:26:09
And the person said something about an issue kind of going on

00:26:12
with their family.

00:26:15
And basically the entire time they had allotted was just being

00:26:17
a human and responding to this person that was going through

00:26:19
some potential big distress, empathized with them and really

00:26:22
didn't have the conversation that they wanted to have.

00:26:26
And at the end of it the person said you know what?

00:26:28
I am so sorry, we used up all the time.

00:26:30
Why don't we schedule another time next week and give you my

00:26:34
attention?

00:26:35
And then the next week, when they had it, that relationship

00:26:38
was so solidified because they displayed empathy.

00:26:42
They made like, hey, my time.

00:26:44
They treated the person like a human being in need, not like a

00:26:47
prospect and a number to close a deal, and they ended up closing

00:26:52
a deal.

00:26:52
Now, obviously, you like it when the story ends with a close

00:26:55
to deal.

00:26:55
But those types of nuances they come from experience and they

00:27:02
come from being properly trained to actually care about people

00:27:07
on the other side, and not just.

00:27:09
Here's our playbook.

00:27:11
Go do the playbook.

00:27:12
We know the buyer's fully in control and yet so often run the

00:27:18
playbook instead of adapt to the human.

00:27:22
Speaker 4: A hundred percent.

00:27:23
You know, a lot of times we have these things that we like a

00:27:26
list of things we need to get out of the initial discovery

00:27:29
call.

00:27:29
We need to know the budget, the timing, the list of that.

00:27:31
Who's going to be the decision maker.

00:27:32
You're not going to get all that right.

00:27:34
It's better to have.

00:27:36
You get as much as you can, prioritize what's most important

00:27:38
, but have that human conversation because this might

00:27:41
be actually be kind of a good little segue into like the

00:27:45
second book.

00:27:45
So the second book is called the sales leader they need and

00:27:49
it's all about.

00:27:50
It actually takes a very similar approach to sell the way

00:27:52
you buy, but just for sales leaders.

00:27:54
So you know, with sell the way you buy it, science and empathy,

00:27:58
don't use tactics that wouldn't work on you and be really

00:28:00
curious about how it all works With sales leaders.

00:28:04
One of the questions I asked the sales leaders that I train in

00:28:07
my practice I say like, can you picture about this sales leader

00:28:10
that made them the best, the best you ever worked for?

00:28:12
What was it about them?

00:28:13
And then I go to the whiteboard and I write down everything

00:28:15
they tell me and I've done this hundreds of times so I know what

00:28:18
the answer is.

00:28:19
And everything they tell me falls into two main categories.

00:28:22
One category is the best sales leader and the other category is

00:28:27
the best sales leader.

00:28:28
So I know what the answer is, and everything they tell me

00:28:32
falls into two main categories.

00:28:34
One category, one which I would argue is probably the most

00:28:36
important, which is they cared about me, right, they challenged

00:28:41
me, they pushed me, they believed in me, they were

00:28:43
transparent, they coached me, like.

00:28:44
They did all these things not because they were trying to get

00:28:48
me to hit the quota explicitly, but because they cared about me

00:28:50
as a person.

00:28:51
And number two, they helped me grow.

00:28:56
And and then I asked these reps like what kind of rep did you

00:29:01
show up as for this leader?

00:29:02
Or I asked the leaders like what did you?

00:29:03
What kind of rep did you show up as for the best leader you

00:29:06
ever had?

00:29:06
And they would say, oh my gosh, like I would, I would run

00:29:09
through a brick wall for Brandon , I would do anything, like I

00:29:11
didn't want to disappoint him, right.

00:29:16
And so I say to these leaders like you already know, if you

00:29:17
want to be the best your team ever had, and unleash that

00:29:20
discretionary effort from them like, get them to try really

00:29:22
hard, you already know what you need to do.

00:29:25
Then the question so care, that's it the you need to do.

00:29:31
Then the question so care, that's it.

00:29:33
The same thing happens with your customers as well, like

00:29:34
they can tell if you're just trying to make the sale or you

00:29:35
actually genuinely care about helping them find the right

00:29:38
thing for them, which may not be your solution at the end of the

00:29:41
day.

00:29:41
Right, they can tell and they will always come back to you,

00:29:46
just the way the sales reps who value working with that leader

00:29:50
will always come back to them.

00:29:50
It won't.

00:29:50
The sales reps who value working with that leader will

00:29:51
always come back to them.

00:29:51
It won't be the last time they work with them, and so what I

00:29:54
tried to do in the second book was codify.

00:29:56
All right.

00:29:57
So if you want to care about your team and help them grow,

00:30:00
what are the five skills that you need to be doing to learn in

00:30:04
order to become that leader?

00:30:05
So, trying to very similar you know that's the way kind of my

00:30:09
research scientist mind works is to try to codify things to make

00:30:12
it easier for people to figure out.

00:30:15
Speaker 3: So are you up for sharing some of those five

00:30:17
things?

00:30:18
Speaker 2: No All right, can I throw this before you go,

00:30:25
because I do want to transition Bob Britton was a little late to

00:30:29
the comments on talking about sell the way you buy for us, but

00:30:31
I would like to come back to that at the end if we have time,

00:30:36
and if not, maybe we carve out something, because I think

00:30:39
that's really interesting topic.

00:30:41
But I do want to move on to the leadership side for today.

00:30:45
So, bob, thanks for that, and we're going to do our best to

00:30:49
get back to it.

00:30:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, so, yeah, so, let's, we'll talk about this

00:30:54
.

00:30:54
I was just kidding, obviously, about the leadership behaviors,

00:30:57
so so some are easier than others.

00:30:58
You know I talk about creating transparency.

00:31:01
You know, driving accountability, protecting and

00:31:04
advocating for your team, coaching them and giving and

00:31:08
getting feedback.

00:31:08
Some of these things are obviously universal, you know,

00:31:11
good leadership traits to have, but applied in a sales context,

00:31:15
there's a lot of specific use cases that are really important.

00:31:18
So, you know, as an example, you know, one of the things is,

00:31:21
I say, transparency when all you're doing is you're giving

00:31:25
people orders.

00:31:26
And for many of us, you know, in sales leadership roles, we got

00:31:29
here because we were good sales reps, right, and so you know, we

00:31:34
often think that if we just flex those muscles again and

00:31:37
help our teams be really good at selling and just tell them what

00:31:40
to do because we have a lot of the answers, then that's the

00:31:44
solution.

00:31:44
But the problem is when we just tell people what to do and, by

00:31:47
the way, I always like to temper what I say by saying like you

00:31:51
know, you might agree with what I'm saying, you might not, but

00:31:54
like there's data and science to back this up.

00:31:57
You know, I don't want to be in a position where I say, oh,

00:31:59
here's what you should do, because this is what I did, like

00:32:01
that's the Cobra Kai tactics.

00:32:03
We want to get out of that.

00:32:05
If we can show people the impact that their efforts have,

00:32:09
they'll be more intentional about how they go about them.

00:32:12
So, for example, simple transparency example you know,

00:32:16
as a sales leader, one of the things that you're asked to do

00:32:19
is present the revenue details of the revenue operation to the

00:32:22
executive teams, to your board of directors, whatever have you,

00:32:25
and what I want the team to do is be really diligent about

00:32:30
completing the fields in the CRM .

00:32:32
You know I need you to keep Salesforce HubSpot.

00:32:34
I need you to keep that stuff up to date, because you know, if

00:32:36
I go to the board with incorrect information or like

00:32:40
lies, that's not good for anyone .

00:32:42
And so what I would do is, when I would ask my team members to

00:32:46
like, ok, keep your stuff up to date, I would pull their

00:32:48
forecast data, I would put it into like my presentation, and

00:32:52
before I went to the board, I would say, hey, team, here's

00:32:56
what you know, your date, here's the data I pulled from

00:32:59
Salesforce.

00:33:00
And here's the story I'm going to tell right, right now.

00:33:05
I don't believe this.

00:33:06
I don't believe that, and the reason I don't believe it is

00:33:08
because I see the average age of the deals in the pipeline are

00:33:12
three times longer than what our average sales cycle is.

00:33:14
So when you tell me we have 5x coverage next quarter, I don't

00:33:18
believe you.

00:33:18
I don't believe you're trying to intentionally deceive me, but

00:33:20
I think you've just pushed deals out there that have no

00:33:22
business being there.

00:33:23
So this is like the kind of straight talk dialogue I would

00:33:25
have with my team.

00:33:26
I'm like I want to show you what I'm going to show the board

00:33:29
and I want to show you the story that I'm telling, and I

00:33:32
also want you to know here are the decisions that are going to

00:33:34
get made based on this.

00:33:35
So if I can give you more insight into how the business

00:33:39
runs, what I'm going to do with the information that you're

00:33:41
giving me by creating some of that transparency, I can get you

00:33:44
to act with more intent.

00:33:47
Speaker 3: Do you find this is an interesting point, because

00:33:51
you hear this a lot right Is that even as marketers or

00:33:54
salespeople we have to act more like a business person and less

00:33:58
as a marketer or less as a salesperson?

00:34:00
Do you find, david, with your clients and what you do, that

00:34:05
when that transparency occurs, that you see the sales team

00:34:08
acting more like business people , thinking more like, does it

00:34:11
sort of organically transfer over by just the behavior of

00:34:15
that sales leader?

00:34:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, 100%.

00:34:17
Like, if I can give you insight into how the business runs.

00:34:20
You're not just going to do things like robotically, you're

00:34:22
going to do things with the right level of intentionality

00:34:25
and you're going to be able to moderate your behaviors.

00:34:27
You know even little things, like you know I talked about.

00:34:29
You know transparency and even accountability is showing people

00:34:34
what good looks like.

00:34:35
You know, if I say, oh, you tell me, I need you to keep your

00:34:38
stuff up to date in Salesforce, what does that mean?

00:34:41
Like, let me show you what like a good next step looks like.

00:34:47
Here are the things of a good next step.

00:34:49
When you tell me, hey, david, my opportunities are up to date in

00:34:51
Salesforce, I want you to.

00:34:53
Here's what that means to me.

00:34:55
It means that these four fields have been updated in the last

00:34:58
week.

00:34:58
There's a timestamp on this.

00:35:00
Like I want to set you up for success.

00:35:02
So if I ever ask you to do something, you know I love you

00:35:05
know, bob, saying this here, like you know, it's more helpful

00:35:07
to know the why than just the what.

00:35:09
Absolutely, giving people like that background is really

00:35:12
important, but then also, like the what and being very clear on

00:35:16
what the expectations were are important.

00:35:19
So you have that gold standard to shoot for, and there's tons

00:35:23
of examples of how sales reps go into their sales motion and

00:35:27
unknowingly do bad or screw something up, not because

00:35:31
they're ill-intentioned or they're lazy, it's just that we

00:35:33
were never clear on what good looked like in this instance,

00:35:38
David.

00:35:38
Speaker 2: That makes me think of this question.

00:35:40
What should salespeople be doing or saying or asking of

00:35:48
their leaders as they come into this?

00:35:50
As we've established, there's just headwinds.

00:35:53
There's all kinds of new stuff in front of us.

00:35:55
What should the sales team be asking?

00:36:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, look, I think you know a lot of

00:36:01
salespeople want feedback, they want to be coached, they want to

00:36:05
be good.

00:36:05
You know it's funny in my practice I know a lot of people

00:36:08
don't want to be good, but a lot of people do want to be good

00:36:11
and they want just like that.

00:36:12
You know I don't again unnecessarily juvenile example,

00:36:15
but the child wants the parent, parents attention.

00:36:16
Like I want you to tell me, you know, how can I be better at my

00:36:19
job.

00:36:19
You know the ride alongs, the feedback.

00:36:22
So I think that's something that's very reasonable, like if

00:36:24
you want me to be good, you have to invest in me by giving me

00:36:28
some of this, you know, feedback and coaching.

00:36:30
And also like clearing the roadblocks for me to be

00:36:32
successful.

00:36:33
So if there's something that I feel is limiting my ability to

00:36:37
be successful, then, as the leader kind of, your job is to

00:36:41
block and tackle for me right Now.

00:36:43
It's usually the leaders who should be taking more of this

00:36:45
initiative saying hey, brandon, what's one thing I can do to

00:36:48
clear the road for you to be more successful?

00:36:50
But not unreasonable, certainly for reps to be asking this of

00:36:53
their leaders.

00:36:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that reminds me we hear a lot.

00:36:57
I hear a lot because we do so much with LinkedIn and a

00:37:02
LinkedIn first motion.

00:37:03
I have a lot of sales professionals that say, gosh, I

00:37:05
wish my CEO would be more active on LinkedIn.

00:37:08
It would help me build my personal brand when I have my

00:37:11
CEO doing it.

00:37:12
And the analogy is like when we go to an event we go to a

00:37:16
conference or a trade show when our CEO has a large network at

00:37:21
that event, my job gets easier because people know my CEO.

00:37:26
Their reputation helps open my doors.

00:37:28
But when they don't have a reputation, then it's like I'm

00:37:31
fighting upstream and so just asking those things of your

00:37:38
leadership and then then, of course, hoping that they'll be

00:37:41
receptive, versus saying yes and not doing anything 100,

00:37:46
although I would argue that the majority of the onus.

00:37:49
Speaker 4: I would love, you know, for reps to be empowered

00:37:52
to say like hey look, you know, leader, here's what I need from

00:37:55
you.

00:37:55
But I think the onus falls much more on the leader.

00:37:58
You chose this.

00:38:00
You didn't have to do this, you chose it.

00:38:05
Speaker 2: I agree with you.

00:38:06
Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of sales producers that

00:38:10
are in teams that if they don't ask for it, they're not going to

00:38:12
get much of anything, and I'm sure that's why you wrote your

00:38:16
next book.

00:38:18
Speaker 3: So I have a question.

00:38:19
I want to tie into Kathy's comment here.

00:38:21
Kathy was saying it's about revenue responsibility versus

00:38:25
quota.

00:38:25
Words matter and salespeople need to understand why they

00:38:28
matter as much as why the products matter.

00:38:30
I want to talk a question related to revenue

00:38:34
responsibility.

00:38:35
Do you find, david, that you know and you talked about

00:38:38
transparency and even how to you know best practices for putting

00:38:42
stuff into Salesforce?

00:38:43
But do most organizations even have a consistent definition of

00:38:47
an opportunity and how that opportunity you know can

00:38:51
transform or be transparent with their team on how that actually

00:38:53
plays out?

00:39:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the quick answer is no.

00:39:08
I mean, you know some do, but even if they do have a

00:39:12
definition for what an opportunity is, oftentimes

00:39:14
there's a disconnect in the handoff between teams.

00:39:18
You know the marketing leads always suck and then the SDRs

00:39:21
aren't qualifying the right opportunities, or maybe

00:39:23
sometimes they they're.

00:39:24
You know, like if I'm you know I've seen this as well like I'm

00:39:26
a buddy that with the sdr who gets comp based on how many

00:39:29
opportunities they flip, so I kind of accept opportunities

00:39:32
that maybe aren't in the strike zone and so, yeah, there's tons

00:39:35
of inconsistency and you know it makes it very difficult for

00:39:38
these, you know, different parts of your organization to

00:39:41
communicate with each other and, and you know, move the move

00:39:44
these opportunities forward.

00:39:45
Speaker 3: I mean, I would think , getting that, getting your

00:39:48
shit together on that part of it and really understanding your

00:39:50
stages, what your close rate, your velocity rate, where is a

00:39:54
high intent that really sets a foundation to understand that

00:39:57
business aspect of things like you were talking about before.

00:40:00
Because, think about it, what are they taking to the board

00:40:03
meeting?

00:40:03
Right, they're trying to take opportunities or actually

00:40:06
qualified pipeline.

00:40:08
In my book, the very first chapter, the reason I wrote the

00:40:11
book was I went to a board meeting and I looked like an

00:40:14
idiot and I was like what the hell happened here and I didn't

00:40:18
want to go through that again.

00:40:19
And that's where I did all the research I ended up putting in

00:40:22
my book.

00:40:22
So I feel exactly what you're talking about and I think it's a

00:40:25
bigger and bigger problem all the time of really just

00:40:28
understanding, as she said, what is the revenue responsibility

00:40:32
and how do we actually achieve that.

00:40:33
A lot of organizations don't really know it's funny, don't

00:40:37
really know.

00:40:37
Speaker 4: It's funny the chapter four of my book, where I

00:40:39
talk about driving accountability I started with

00:40:43
the first section is preparing for the board meeting.

00:40:45
Because, exactly what you said, when I prepare for the board

00:40:53
meeting, or if you're out there presenting in front of the

00:40:54
executive team, they don't just want to know what the answer is,

00:40:56
they are judging you and your suitability, tom, to be in that

00:40:59
role.

00:40:59
Right, right and it's and it as an aside, it's funny I invested

00:41:06
in my last VP sales role.

00:41:07
I invested in this analytics package that was expensive, that

00:41:11
I only really used once a quarter when I was going to

00:41:13
present in front of the board, and the reason why I used it was

00:41:16
because it gave me insights into my business that I couldn't

00:41:19
have gotten any other way.

00:41:20
So I was willing to pay a bunch of money to look smart in front

00:41:25
of the board because they're, you know, because they're

00:41:27
judging me, and I wish that my team felt a little bit of that

00:41:35
pressure that I felt.

00:41:36
I think if they felt that pressure they would try harder,

00:41:40
you know, in their roles, to get the right data to me, you know.

00:41:43
And so this transference of accountability is actually like

00:41:46
a really important concept Like how do we hold our team

00:41:48
accountable?

00:41:49
And I think one of the great kind of you know works of magic

00:41:53
of great sales leaders is that they know how much of the you

00:41:56
know.

00:41:56
Oftentimes we get a lot of pressure from the boards and the

00:41:58
executive team and the investors and we're like we go

00:42:00
to the team, we're like team, you got to like try harder.

00:42:02
We got like the boards breathing down my neck and we

00:42:05
just transfer a hundred percent of that, you know, that pressure

00:42:08
to the team.

00:42:08
So knowing how much of that pressure to transfer and by what

00:42:12
mechanism is really important.

00:42:14
Speaker 3: But I do wish that they felt that level of

00:42:16
accountability, a little bit more accountability than they do

00:42:18
, like the way I felt no, I think it's awesome and in my in,

00:42:23
you know, when I wrote about in the book where I got the punch

00:42:25
in the stomach is one of the board members or people in there

00:42:28
said how confident do you feel about what you just presented?

00:42:31
And I was like, uh, you know, um, and I couldn't answer the

00:42:36
question.

00:42:36
And this wasn't my first rodeo either, right, I've, I've done a

00:42:39
few of these before.

00:42:40
But I got to this point.

00:42:41
I was like man, I don't feel like I can back up what I'm

00:42:44
talking about here and that was sort of that shift that you were

00:42:48
talking about.

00:42:48
You know, the COVID era, things getting harder, the buyer, all

00:42:52
these sort of perfect storm of things coming together.

00:42:54
So I'm a big proponent of what you're talking about, of that

00:43:01
transparency and accountability and getting the team involved in

00:43:03
the business, not just in the as Kathy says, the quota of what

00:43:04
they're doing.

00:43:05
Speaker 4: So a hundred percent.

00:43:06
Well, it's funny.

00:43:06
I'll give you like a you know, both a leadership tip and a

00:43:09
sales tip, Cause I talk about this in my discovery training is

00:43:13
I say the concept is sell more by losing faster.

00:43:18
And what do I mean by that?

00:43:20
When I look at the amount of time in real life Salesforce and

00:43:24
the company, after the amount of time that my sales reps were

00:43:26
spending in the discovery phase of sales cycles for deals they

00:43:29
ended up winning versus deals they ended up losing, I found

00:43:34
they were spending like three times longer in discovering for

00:43:38
deals we ended up losing.

00:43:40
And why Customers go dark.

00:43:42
We can't get the executives on the phone, Like they're just

00:43:44
giving us the signals that they're just not that into us.

00:43:46
But the reps that do a better job of saying, hey, you know

00:43:50
what?

00:43:51
Like they're just not that into me.

00:43:52
I'm not going to focus on them and just focus on, like the

00:43:55
newer, high potential opportunities.

00:43:57
Those teams and reps actually did better.

00:44:00
They had higher levels of attainment because they weren't

00:44:02
focused on all of these distractions.

00:44:05
So I use this as an example of you know kind of what we're

00:44:09
talking about here, like execution, looking at the data

00:44:13
and saying like I don't believe that.

00:44:15
These opportunities that you're kind of stashing out three

00:44:18
months from now, I don't believe they're real, because look at

00:44:20
how long we spent in the discovery phase of these things.

00:44:23
Right, and so having some of that real talk, using data,

00:44:29
keeping our teams focused, driving some accountability,

00:44:32
will actually have an impact on our bottom line.

00:44:34
But yeah, it's like this very simple kind of common sense

00:44:39
thing.

00:44:50
Speaker 3: Like, just use data, transparency, focus to achieve

00:44:53
the goal that you're looking for , that come through the social,

00:44:57
the relationship building or whatever are of much higher

00:45:00
quality, much higher percentage close than something that came

00:45:10
in through a you know, mql, a traditional sort of MQL.

00:45:11
So I think it's also really valuable to not only understand

00:45:13
what you just said, david, but what is it?

00:45:16
You know where these quote unquote leads are coming from

00:45:19
and a lot of times that can probably act as a certainly a

00:45:23
lens into is this discovery going to go way off base or take

00:45:26
forever?

00:45:26
Right, you can.

00:45:27
You can look at a lot of variables and tell whether or

00:45:29
not this thing probably has some legs or doesn't.

00:45:34
Speaker 4: 100%, yeah, Like you know, I sometimes refer to these

00:45:36
as like the physical, chemical properties.

00:45:38
It's like, eh, judging by this piece of data and that piece,

00:45:41
this doesn't smell like a deal.

00:45:42
Speaker 3: That's actually going to Not really too good yeah.

00:45:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, just simple sniff test, and I think a lot of

00:45:50
times we don't have the freedom to be able to do some of the

00:45:53
simple sniff test.

00:45:54
But what I hear you saying with that as a sales of yours and

00:45:57
encouraging them and looking at the data and show, okay, our

00:46:01
longer sales cycles have a higher loss rate.

00:46:03
What's going on here, like what's happening and it's

00:46:11
logical when you start unpacking it that way, like the harder

00:46:12
they are to get the information out through the discoveries and

00:46:14
the harder they are to get back to the next conversation, to go

00:46:16
deeper.

00:46:16
Probably not a high priority.

00:46:19
It's not a high priority.

00:46:21
They're really not that interested.

00:46:22
Maybe they're acting out of a little bit of courtesy, but

00:46:26
either way it's going to waste your time.

00:46:29
Speaker 3: But, brandon let's even go back to how we started

00:46:31
this with noise.

00:46:32
Right Time is never your friend , because time just opens up the

00:46:37
opportunity for more noise to get in.

00:46:39
That you now have to overcome.

00:46:40
So anyway, sorry, David.

00:46:44
Speaker 4: No, you can use data as well.

00:46:47
I'll give this example, because I give this example in the book

00:46:51
.

00:46:51
So one of the sales leaders I coach, he was trying to get his

00:46:55
team to do more prospecting.

00:46:57
Of course sales teams, they like the nice inbound leads.

00:46:59
Like I don't want to have to get on the phone or do all more

00:47:00
prospecting.

00:47:00
Of course sales teams, they like the nice inbound leads, I

00:47:00
don't want to have to get on the phone or do all the prospecting

00:47:03
.

00:47:03
So his team was like no, we're just going to work the inbound

00:47:06
leads.

00:47:06
And they said they're like well , brandon, the inbound leads,

00:47:09
they close faster than the outbound leads.

00:47:12
So why would I focus on the outbound leads?

00:47:14
So what does he do?

00:47:22
He gets into the data and he says yeah, it's true, the

00:47:23
inbound leads close 17% faster than the outbound leads, but the

00:47:25
revenue from the outbound leads are 83% greater.

00:47:26
I forget what the statistic, whatever it was, it was

00:47:28
compelling.

00:47:29
And so all of a sudden it seems like, oh, okay, well, when you

00:47:31
put it like that, again, we're being responsible for the

00:47:34
revenue and the leading indicators and the behaviors

00:47:37
that drive that revenue.

00:47:39
Sometimes we can use data to kind of, you know, soften the

00:47:41
minds of our teams and get them to move in the direction that we

00:47:44
want.

00:47:45
Even you know and so far you're talking about, like,

00:47:46
forecasting you know when we always have to kind of, you know

00:47:50
, beat our reps over the head to like get all the crap, all the

00:47:53
stuff that you pushed out into future.

00:47:55
You know, quarters, like you got to get that out because

00:47:57
here's the downstream impact on, like, on our business.

00:48:00
And you know I always use this litmus test.

00:48:02
You know, back when we were at Salesforce, as I said, okay,

00:48:04
like, take one of these little opportunities you pushed out,

00:48:07
what if Mark Benioff called you into his office and said you

00:48:10
know, tom, this opportunity, this one here, tell me about

00:48:14
that.

00:48:15
Why is this one closing three months from now?

00:48:17
You know, could you defend to your point, like, your board

00:48:22
experience?

00:48:22
Like, how confident do you feel in this Tom?

00:48:24
Like, how much could you defend ?

00:48:26
You know what's going to happen and for most of us in sales,

00:48:29
there's like a very thin veneer of confidence where we just

00:48:33
either say things or we actually don't know, and our customers

00:48:40
can tell if we believe or don't believe in our solution, just

00:48:41
the way our team members can tell whether we know what the

00:48:44
hell we're talking about, as it relates to improving our sales

00:48:46
motion.

00:48:47
Speaker 2: So I've got a common theme through our conversation.

00:48:51
Speaker 4: If you're asked about your confidence level in some

00:48:53
sort of sale and your answer is it's not a good thing, yeah,

00:48:59
well, yeah, and one of the reasons why people sometimes

00:49:02
don't have confidence is because all we do is we train them on

00:49:04
like products like, oh, like here's the product.

00:49:06
Like we don't train them enough on the problem you know you

00:49:09
think about when you go into the doctor's office and the doctor

00:49:12
has seen a lot of cases like yours and they have a lot of

00:49:15
knowledge.

00:49:15
Like you develop lots of confidence, you want to go back

00:49:18
to that doctor.

00:49:18
You know you don't want to have someone who you just like.

00:49:21
Oh well, I got this machine that I plug in and it tells me,

00:49:24
like if you don't have the knowledge or context or

00:49:27
conviction behind what you're saying, then why would your team

00:49:30
and why would your customers believe you?

00:49:32
Yeah, completely.

00:49:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to go back.

00:49:37
Speaker 3: Brandon, or do you have another you want to?

00:49:40
I?

00:49:40
Speaker 2: do?

00:49:40
I've got a question on.

00:49:42
I wanted to go back, Brandon, how often do they actually go

00:49:44
and look at the data and have these types of conversations and

00:50:06
let the data motivate and tell that narrative to help the sales

00:50:10
team understand what their world really looks?

00:50:13
Speaker 4: like you mean like internally, yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:50:18
not enough.

00:50:19
I have a section in my book that I call let data do the hard

00:50:23
work, as it relates to driving accountability, and so you know

00:50:26
oftentimes like oh, brandon, you've got to make more calls.

00:50:28
You know, tom, you've got to do more of this.

00:50:30
Your conversion rate, you know, like and so like.

00:50:32
Why do I have to as a leader, why do I have to have these

00:50:34
conversations?

00:50:35
Can I not use data that I give you visibility into to help

00:50:39
moderate you, self-moderate your behaviors?

00:50:42
So, yeah, we don't use data enough, we don't often use data

00:50:47
in the right way, and the great thing about data is that it's

00:50:51
impartial.

00:50:51
It just it's like science, it is what it is.

00:50:54
You know, I'm not.

00:51:01
You know, and I can deliver it without imposing my personal

00:51:03
emotional bias on it, if I said hey, tom, I noticed that you're

00:51:05
near the bottom of the leaderboard as it relates to the

00:51:07
number of prospecting calls that you're making every week,

00:51:12
what's going on, and I can prove out why making that number is

00:51:17
important.

00:51:17
But, yeah, a lot of organizations don't use they.

00:51:21
We use simple data like oh, you're not hitting your quota,

00:51:23
you're behind on this, but there's actually a lot more we

00:51:27
can do in some of these nuanced examples, like I gave around,

00:51:30
the speed of the sales cycle versus the revenue associated

00:51:34
with it.

00:51:35
Or, for example, one of the things that we used to look at a

00:51:37
lot at Salesforce was install-based deals or new

00:51:41
business.

00:51:42
So we would say reps love to sell products and services to

00:51:46
existing customers because it's easier.

00:51:48
I'll sell you a few more licenses here and there, a new

00:51:51
product.

00:51:51
But we also knew at Salesforce that for every dollar that we

00:51:56
bring in within 18 months, that dollar is going to turn into $7

00:52:03
of expansion revenue.

00:52:04
So, brandon, when I say last month that 90% of your revenue

00:52:10
came from the install base, that's great.

00:52:12
You hit your number last month.

00:52:13
But why I'm concerned is because if you keep doing that,

00:52:18
that trend continues, you're not going to have enough new

00:52:21
business to feed your quota for, you know, months to come and so

00:52:24
like a lot of that, like more nuanced data is also really

00:52:27
important in terms of driving behavior, just not not just like

00:52:30
the top line stuff you know I like this is interesting butch's

00:52:35
comment on there.

00:52:36
Speaker 2: Tom is um.

00:52:37
You know the, whose team's second most important measure

00:52:41
was cost of a boarded transaction.

00:52:43
It really gets again.

00:52:45
Let's look at the data and make the awareness of the time spent

00:52:50
, the cost loss, the opportunity missed, part of the culture and

00:52:56
things that we talk about.

00:52:58
How often should a leader be talking about those things?

00:53:02
Or am I off base with thinking that that's an important part of

00:53:05
culture?

00:53:06
Speaker 4: It certainly is, and it's funny.

00:53:07
So, as I was doing this research for Sell the Way you

00:53:09
Buy, I was working with Shopify and one of my friends and sales

00:53:14
leaders at Shopify she was telling me that one of the

00:53:16
metrics that they track on their dashboard is what they refer to

00:53:20
as TTL time to lose and it's a metric that tells us, like

00:53:25
basically, how much time you know we're wasting in

00:53:27
opportunities.

00:53:28
And the idea is like, if we're going to lose, I want to lose

00:53:32
quickly.

00:53:32
You know that the worst thing I can do is lose slowly, but in

00:53:36
fact, like, the even worse thing than that is losing slowly and

00:53:38
not realizing you're losing, which a lot of people do.

00:53:40
Yeah, but, like, I want to optimize my sales machine not

00:53:44
just for wins but also losses.

00:53:47
Right, and so when every deal is precious, we often think, oh,

00:53:50
we need to hang on to it.

00:53:51
You know that.

00:53:57
Well, they said call me back in six months, so I might as well

00:53:58
just push that opportunity down the field.

00:53:59
You know, meanwhile, like no, like we should be optimizing for

00:54:01
losses If someone's not a good fit.

00:54:02
This is again what my data showed.

00:54:03
My New York city sales reps, who are much more ruthless with

00:54:06
their time had a much larger proportion of fresh pipeline,

00:54:11
pipeline that was like less than 60 days old, versus other teams

00:54:13
that had lots of 90 plus day old pipeline.

00:54:16
That was kind of sticking around.

00:54:17
And my New York City sales teams had much higher attainment

00:54:21
because they were just more focused.

00:54:23
So optimizing your funnel, not just for wins but lost time, is

00:54:28
really important.

00:54:29
But I'll tell you I have not seen a lot of organizations do

00:54:32
that.

00:54:37
Speaker 3: I think that's, you know, now more than ever, I

00:54:41
think that is a very, very key strategy, because if you are

00:54:46
going to invest more, more time, more relationships, more energy

00:54:51
, more intelligence into the qualified deals, you can't be

00:54:54
wasting your time with the ones that aren't going to win.

00:54:57
So you've got to put your attention on the ones that

00:54:59
really matter, right, and so getting the ones out of the way,

00:55:02
and plus the hope.

00:55:03
You know it's all this hope stuff, right, that's the.

00:55:05
That's where confidence goes away, is where the hope factor

00:55:09
comes in and overtakes the actual, real data.

00:55:11
And you know, that's what I saw , that when I really looked at

00:55:15
it, that when I debugged that board meeting, I had a lot of

00:55:18
hope and not a lot of confidence , and that had to switch very,

00:55:22
very quickly.

00:55:24
Speaker 4: Defensibility is an important like OK, so you have a

00:55:26
lot of hope, Prove to me or defend why this deal is going to

00:55:29
close.

00:55:29
If you can't, you know, as they say, hope is not a strategy, so

00:55:33
yeah.

00:55:34
Speaker 2: And it again.

00:55:36
We come back to data and information as a motivator.

00:55:41
If we're looking at this from the data and let the narrative

00:55:46
show like, hey, these deals don't tend to close, here's the

00:55:52
data to show it, it should also be a motivator and almost a

00:55:56
coach to help the sales rep navigate the process better.

00:56:01
Like, oh, my slow deals have not been converting, they've

00:56:07
been slow because of X, y, z reasons.

00:56:10
Let me go make sure that those things aren't happening earlier

00:56:14
in the stages so I'm not dealing with another slow deal that

00:56:18
doesn't resolve.

00:56:20
Does that logic follow, guys, or am I?

00:56:23
I'm no, I'm just confusing everybody.

00:56:26
Speaker 4: No, no.

00:56:26
I think it's reasonable to look at what the data is telling you

00:56:29
like at every stage you know of the sales process, so yeah at

00:56:32
the beginning if it's taking too long to run through discovery.

00:56:34
People aren't being lined up.

00:56:35
The customer's ghosting you like me, like the chances are

00:56:38
they're not that into you, right , you know like, so we should

00:56:41
act accordingly.

00:56:42
It doesn't mean that we should completely jettison and abandon

00:56:44
the deal, although in some cases we should, but we should act

00:56:47
accordingly.

00:56:48
The other thing is, I would say , like salespeople can also be

00:56:50
more prescriptive, and I'm I talk about the power of

00:56:53
prescription a lot because we're we're like the doctors in this

00:56:57
doctor patient relationship.

00:56:58
So you know it's incumbent upon us to help our customers, you

00:57:01
know, navigate this process as efficiently as possible.

00:57:03
You know, if I talk to a client that I know is going to like,

00:57:09
so I'll give you an example In my practice I have lots of great

00:57:12
, I'm grateful to have lots of nice big, you know, software

00:57:16
companies that I work with and smaller ones.

00:57:18
But the big software companies you, if I go through the regular

00:57:21
channels, oh, let's talk to the enablement team and let's talk

00:57:24
to this.

00:57:24
That's the slow road to failure .

00:57:26
In order for my larger client engagements to be successful,

00:57:32
there needs to be a leader who stands up and says we're gonna

00:57:36
do this and I'm gonna figure out how to fund it.

00:57:38
And I'm not gonna go through the channels because I know

00:57:41
that's the slow road to, you know, to victory or failure.

00:57:43
If I'm talking to a big company and we're having these initial

00:57:48
conversations and I'm not getting the sense that that

00:57:51
leader is going to stick their hand up and say like, yes, I

00:57:53
want this to be done, then my spidey sense goes off and I

00:57:56
might say, you know, hey, brandon, like typically, you

00:57:58
know, I found working with big companies, if we go through the

00:58:01
proper, like all these channels, like it's just going to be the

00:58:03
slow road to failure.

00:58:04
All these people are going to want to get involved and it's

00:58:05
going to take a lot.

00:58:06
It's like, it's kind of like the way I would handle against an

00:58:09
RFP process where a company says , oh, we want to go through an

00:58:15
RFP.

00:58:15
I'm like, and here's why, and here's what's going to happen,

00:58:19
you're going to make these connections internally.

00:58:21
You're going to be told this.

00:58:21
You're going to be told that, like you know, do you think that

00:58:24
we can navigate through this somehow?

00:58:25
Because, like I know the way this movie is going to end and

00:58:32
if I'm not getting the feels that we're going to be able to,

00:58:33
you know, navigate our way to the finish line, then like,

00:58:35
maybe this isn't for us.

00:58:36
So I think salespeople have a great opportunity to do that

00:58:39
with their customers.

00:58:40
It's like be prescriptive and like, if you don't feel like

00:58:42
it's going in the right direction, you know, like feel

00:58:46
free to like challenge the customer on why it's not.

00:58:49
And I say, you know, kathy has a point here.

00:58:51
Speaker 3: Well that you just answered her question.

00:58:53
I think perfectly that's how you make the conversations more

00:58:57
productive, is make them more prescriptive, and then the fear

00:59:01
factor kind of goes away.

00:59:03
Speaker 4: And I would also say, you know, Kathy which I think

00:59:05
is a great point, because I talk about this in the sales leader

00:59:09
they need, I say, like people, when they fear consequences,

00:59:17
they're less likely to you know, to act or to give you the truth

00:59:19
.

00:59:19
So the example I give is, like you know, my kids, when they

00:59:20
were little, we would like to wake up on Saturday mornings and

00:59:22
make waffles, and so one Saturday morning I wake up and I

00:59:25
hear this big thud in the kitchen and I go down and

00:59:28
there's like a chair that's like pushed up against the cupboard

00:59:32
and there's like a bag of chocolate chips on the floor,

00:59:34
with like three kids that look guilty as hell sitting there,

00:59:38
and I come down, kids that look guilty as hell sitting there,

00:59:44
and I come down.

00:59:45
I'm like who did this?

00:59:45
And of course, exactly.

00:59:46
It's like, oh, no one did it, of course.

00:59:46
Like no one can remember what exactly happened.

00:59:47
I don't know, I don't.

00:59:48
It's like I have no recollection of this happening,

00:59:50
and so the reason why their memories all of a sudden

00:59:53
disappear is because they fear there's a consequence.

00:59:55
They think, well, dad's going to be angry if they find out who

00:59:58
it is.

00:59:58
So what do I do?

00:59:59
Like I take that fear away and I say, hey, look, I, I'm not

01:00:03
angry.

01:00:03
I, you know, I just need to clean this up.

01:00:06
And so I would appreciate if someone who may have been

01:00:09
involved in this, like if they could just help me.

01:00:11
And then all of a sudden I get, like you know, some hand raises

01:00:14
right.

01:00:14
So you know, kathy, I know it's a tricky line to balance here,

01:00:19
but when salespeople have a fear of failure, yes, they tend to

01:00:22
hang on to things for too long, but if we make it OK, like I

01:00:26
want you to give up stuff that you don't feel is a good fit, or

01:00:28
at least let's talk about it Like the consequence isn't there

01:00:32
, or at least the fear isn't there.

01:00:33
Then we can have that much more open relationship, like you can

01:00:36
play relaxed.

01:00:37
So I think that's really important.

01:00:41
If we want to make these conversations more productive,

01:00:43
we have to kind of you know, look, sales is a.

01:00:45
You know it's a winning and losing game.

01:00:47
You got to put up the numbers.

01:00:48
But it's not all about the numbers.

01:00:51
If we can reduce the consequence of that fear of

01:00:53
failure, then people will be more likely to kind of lean in

01:00:56
and do what's necessary to be more effective.

01:01:00
Speaker 2: I think, as we wrap up, Tom, I think one of my big

01:01:01
takeaways from today is going to be that make not failure, but

01:01:09
make the conversation around loss and the cost of loss part

01:01:15
of the conversation so that it empowers people to move bad

01:01:20
deals through quicker and, just you know, get to it as you say,

01:01:26
lose faster on deals that don't pass the sniff test and be okay

01:01:31
Instead of the fear of failure.

01:01:32
Go, I got to do everything I can to try and salvage it.

01:01:35
We need kind of know like this isn't going to go anywhere.

01:01:37
Let's kind of move on.

01:01:38
Let's go ahead and ask these harder questions and just kind

01:01:41
of get the shit out on the table so that we can go yep, it's

01:01:43
shit, let's move on and be okay with it.

01:01:46
I think that's, that's my, that's my takeaway from the day.

01:01:51
Speaker 3: I think you're right on.

01:01:52
I mean, you know what on a good , a really good salesperson is

01:01:56
batting one for four, one out of four, one out of three, right,

01:01:59
maybe?

01:02:00
I mean, it's the other two out of three that you want to really

01:02:03
understand, to really learn and get better.

01:02:06
Speaker 2: So I think that's a great it reminds me of my old

01:02:12
Brian Tracy training and now that I'm saying it, I should

01:02:17
have known this for lots of years and I probably did and

01:02:20
then forgot it.

01:02:21
But you know, we'd say you start to get to a point where

01:02:23
you know your numbers and you know, like hey, it's going to

01:02:25
take me 24 of these to make a deal.

01:02:29
So when you get your fifth no, you're like sweet, let's go get

01:02:33
number six, let's go get number seven, let's get there.

01:02:35
So the 24th one becomes a yes.

01:02:43
Speaker 3: And it is.

01:02:43
It's motivating Absolutely, David.

01:02:44
Awesome stuff today, Some really good nuggets in here.

01:02:45
This is one worth re-listening to for sure.

01:02:47
If somebody wants to get your book, find out more about your

01:02:50
consulting, where should they go ?

01:02:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the books are all available on

01:02:55
Amazon.

01:02:55
It's probably the easiest.

01:02:56
There you go.

01:02:58
Speaker 2: I don't have the other one, I don't have the

01:03:00
other one.

01:03:00
I don't have it up here because it's not out yet, right?

01:03:03
Speaker 4: Well, so okay, here I'll do the product placement

01:03:07
for you.

01:03:07
So here it is.

01:03:08
Um, it's technically out May 1st, although, um, you know

01:03:13
between us, it is available on Amazon now.

01:03:15
Don't don't, don't say that too loudly, but it is available on

01:03:17
Amazon now so you can get them on Amazon.

01:03:20
And then for the rest of the stuff I give away tons of stuff

01:03:23
for free, it's all you know, mostly ungated.

01:03:26
You can go to my website, cerebralsellingcom YouTube

01:03:30
channel by the same name tons of articles, videos, content, free

01:03:33
training for you to digest from there.

01:03:35
Awesome, brandon, I think.

01:03:38
Speaker 3: Carson's going to be really sorry he missed this one

01:03:40
today.

01:03:41
Speaker 2: I think so too.

01:03:42
Carson would have had a lot of fun with David.

01:03:44
Yeah, so we're going to have to do it again, carson's our sales

01:03:49
producer for Microsoft, and so he brings a new, a different

01:03:54
lens to it and really gets into the from the producer standpoint

01:03:57
.

01:03:57
Well we can do it again.

01:04:00
Speaker 4: I just got to write another book at some point in

01:04:02
the future, and then we'll do another one.

01:04:04
Speaker 2: Well, no, we'll come back and talk about the other

01:04:05
book when I have it in my hand.

01:04:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, for sure, yeah, All right.

01:04:10
Well, thanks again.

01:04:11
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody for the comments.

01:04:12
Great comments today, Good questions David, good luck with

01:04:15
the book and everybody.

01:04:17
Have a good week, my pleasure.

01:04:26
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01:04:28
Selling.

01:04:29
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