In this episode we welcome best-selling author Mike Weinberg! As a top performer in sales, Mike has embarked on a journey from being a stellar salesperson to a triumphant sales management culture leader. His ride, filled with trials, triumphs and a treasure trove of insights, not only makes for an engaging tale but offers a wealth of wisdom on the importance of sales management and the challenges that come with its transition.
We traverse into the details of Mike's latest book and explore the process behind its creation and the impact it's making. Furthermore, Mike shares his expertise on the necessity of traditional sales principles and the importance of rewarding salespeople who bring new business.
In addition, Mike shares his candid thoughts on how social selling has found its place in mainstream sales, emphasizing the importance of offering value and building relationships. He also underscores the significance of using social as a channel effectively and strategically.
Finally, Mike guides us through the essentials of sales management, highlighting the importance of customer-centric sales approaches and spends time discussing the shift from forecast to pipeline. Don't miss an unforgettable episode filled with expert advice, valuable insights, and a bit of humor.
Don't miss out—your next big idea could be just one episode away!
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Speaker 1: Welcome to Social Selling 2.0 Live Show and
00:00:03
Podcast, where each week, we explore the future of B2B sales.
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Social has changed the B2B and professional services landscape
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forever.
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Capturing and keeping buyer attention has never been more
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challenging.
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Our mission is to help you discover new strategies, new
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technologies, new go-to-market systems and stay up-to-date with
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what is working now in B2B sales.
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Your hosts are Carson Hedy, the number one social seller at
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Microsoft, tom Burton, a best-selling author and B2B
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sales specialist, and Brandon Lee, an entrepreneur with
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multiple seven and eight figure exits and a leading voice in
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LinkedIn social selling.
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Brandon and Tom also lead social selling 2.0 solutions,
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which offers turnkey consulting, coaching and training to B2B
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sales leaders.
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Now let's start the show.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode number 58, Social Selling 2.0.
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I am Tom Burton, along with birthday boy Carson.
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Hedy Carson, you're 29,.
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Did you say?
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Again, yes, again I thought you said he was 58.
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58.
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Well, that could be true.
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Thank you, Brad 58.
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Speaker 3: Goodness gracious.
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Speaker 2: And we have Brandon Lee and our special guest today,
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our special birthday guest, Mike Weinberg.
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Mike, welcome.
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Speaker 5: Thank you, Always happy to celebrate Carson.
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Speaker 3: If you asked nicely on your birthday you can get
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Mike Weinberg on your show.
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I am representing St Louis here .
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Two weeks in a row we got St Louis guest.
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Last week we had Christie Jones and then, of course, my main
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man, sean Connery, who died three years ago yesterday.
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Speaker 5: Hey, as long as you brought up Christie, I'm going
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to do a shameless plug for my friend and also St Louis and I
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just completed the forward to her first book and my kids will
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be reading this book.
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A lot of potential and new sales people will be reading
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this book.
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I'm very, very excited about what she's put together.
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Speaker 3: And I'm going to shout out to my mom too, because
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my mom watched the last episode with Christie and said it was
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one of her favorites.
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Speaker 5: She's the real deal.
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It's a real deal.
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Yeah, a lot of respect for her.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it was some really good stuff in there and
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I've listened to it a couple of times and taken notes, because
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there were just so many good things that we went through.
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Well, a lot of birthday wishes coming through and people
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jumping in.
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But before we get into, mike, we have some great stuff to
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cover.
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Today we have a, and Brandon pulled some strings here, and we
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have a special cameo appearance from somebody here.
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So everybody hold on, and I'm hoping that this works.
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So give me one second.
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Speaker 6: Hey, carson, it's Leah Thompson here, aka Lorraine
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McFly from Back to the Future, and I hear that your podcast
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Mate was an extra on Back to the Future in the 50s and that's
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why he's so dreamy.
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But I'm telling you, carson, you are even more dreamy.
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So have a lovely, lovely birthday.
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Congratulations on having the number one rated podcast on
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social selling.
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That's no easy task.
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You guys must be really funny and awesome.
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So thank you so much for dressing as my son Many, many
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times for Halloween, and I really appreciate it, and lots
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of love.
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I can't wait to hear your show.
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Happy birthday, you dreamboat.
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Happy birthday, you dreamboat.
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Happy birthday, dear Carson.
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Happy birthday to you.
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Speaker 3: My teenage self is very grateful, my crush Lorraine
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.
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Wow, you guys have outdone yourselves.
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You've outdone yourselves.
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Thank you, yeah thanks to.
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Brandon, he made that happen.
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Speaker 2: Right then, thank you From lunch room to Lorraine.
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Speaker 3: That's pretty amazing .
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Should we just end off right here?
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Mike, I know you have some great stuff to talk about.
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Speaker 2: I don't know if I can bring anything after that.
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I'm swooning.
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Speaker 3: I think Carson's pulses might be a little too
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high right now for him to focus.
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Speaker 5: So I don't know where to go with this.
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You know you could go in a glass of water, take a walk or
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something.
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Yeah, I think Carson's pulse might be a little too high for a
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walk or something It'll be okay , I made you the moment.
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Speaker 3: Pull me off the floor .
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Speaker 2: Now we're still here, Mike.
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Speaker 3: So I'm just going to leave and watch Mike.
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Speaker 4: So, hey, I have expected you to be dressed as
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Marty McFly today.
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It's your birthday, it's a day after Halloween.
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I mean, I was expecting doing some a DeLorean.
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Speaker 3: My kids made me dress as a super kitty this year, but
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I have dressed as Marty before, so Lorraine's comments hit the
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mark.
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Speaker 2: All right.
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Well, let's get into it, mike, welcome.
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Thank you for putting up with us this far, so this is great.
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So, mike, it's better than a dad joke.
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That's right.
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It's better than a dad joke, you're absolutely right.
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So, mike, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background,
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and then we're going to talk about some, I think, pretty
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intriguing questions about selling and social selling and
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some of the great stuff that you've written about in your
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books.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't wait.
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I'm looking forward to it.
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Thanks for having me here.
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I'm here for Carson for his birthday.
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I am between running between snow and Minneapolis yesterday
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and I woke up to snow on Halloween in Minneapolis, and
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tomorrow I head out to the West Coast for a client gig, so I'm
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glad we were able to make this happen today.
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My deal is I love sales.
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I was a top sales hunter in several organizations and what
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I'm doing now was not on my vision board.
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I did not expect to be in this position or be invited on cool
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shows like this to talk about sales and sales leadership, but
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my passion is helping salespeople win more new sales,
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and I do that a couple of ways.
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Sometimes I work with sales teams and do training and
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coaching.
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My book in that arena is New Sales Simplified, and that book
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opened a lot of doors which led to Sales Management Simplified.
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And then my latest book, which we'll talk about, and I spend
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probably almost two-thirds of my time now working with sales
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leaders and sales management teams, helping them increase
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sales management effectiveness, because the sales leader is the
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key, the key to driving culture, the key to driving results, and
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most companies have completely lost sight of what the sales
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manager's job is and how they should be spending their time,
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and that's a whole conversation we may get into today, but I'm
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just thrilled to be here and talk about sales and sales
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management.
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Speaker 3: And I just want to say thank you to Mike because,
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to his point and he underplayed this as he always does this was
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literally the only day he could be in town in between travels
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and he chose to be here, so we really appreciate having you,
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mike.
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Speaker 5: Because you told me I would get a ride in your Aston
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Martin.
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That is why I'm here.
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I'm done.
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Okay.
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Speaker 2: We told him that Leah Thompson was coming, so he's.
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Speaker 3: I was just going to say can you be seen in Aston
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Martin?
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I mean, you're a more.
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Speaker 5: I can, especially yours.
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So that's all good, All right fair enough, all right.
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Speaker 2: So, mike, to kick things off because we were
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chatting.
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We've been chatting for the last couple of days, back and
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forth, and one of the things that was really intriguing, I
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thought, was you're saying there's a real massive shift
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occurring from sort of the A team sales hero, if you will, to
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more of a sales management, I guess culture or structure.
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And I would love to hear your take on that and what you've
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seen and why you see this transitioning is happening.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and in fact it's one of the motivators to
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write the book.
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The publisher actually came to me and said hey, we're doing a
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series of books.
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They have a classic book called the First Time Manager and they
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wanted to build a series around it and one would be for sales
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managers.
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And they asked me if I would write that.
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And one of the reasons I said yes is because I see what you're
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talking about all the time.
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There is nothing similar between being a top producing
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individual contributor and being a sales team leader.
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The only thing similar about the jobs are the word sales.
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But sales person and sales manager I mean completely
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different.
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The sales people who are high ego and selfish and win on their
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own do amazing work right.
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And then you get promoted into management and you realize, oh,
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I'm not responsible for one, now I'm responsible for many.
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I don't win on my own, I have to win through my people.
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But I can't even be selfish.
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I have to be selfless and learn how to deflect the glory and
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the credit and subdue my own ego .
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So it's such a massive shift to make that flip from individual
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contributor particularly if you're a star into management,
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and so a lot of the focus of the book in the beginning gets into
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what is that shift and how do you approach it successfully, so
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you don't struggle as badly as I did in my first sales
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management and sales executive job Because I was not prepared.
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Nobody told me.
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After having been a top producer and then a really
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successful run in coaching and consulting, I finally took a job
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as an executive and as a sales manager and I stunk my first
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year doing that for a whole lot of reasons, but one of them is
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because I didn't understand how to make that shift from winning
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on my own to winning through my people.
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Speaker 3: I just want to say thank you, Larry Levine, Mark,
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everybody the happy birthday wishes.
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Larry, Great to see you on Great past Carson, may I look at
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?
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Speaker 5: you.
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May I look?
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Can we just be honest?
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He might be the most loved person in the industry.
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When I did a podcast episode with him and I promoted the
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amount of love that was and I don't even think Carson I went
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back and listened to our episode .
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I mean it was good but it wasn't our best, like you know,
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and the fawning over him, people like he could do anything and
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people like Carson he's the best .
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Speaker 3: You're going to make me blush worse than I already
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did.
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Speaker 2: I want you to blush.
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That's good, he's a dream.
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Though he's a dream, I got to ask this yeah, dream.
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Speaker 3: I got to ask this, so in first time sales manager,
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let me just say Wait wait, wait, wait.
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Speaker 4: Did you notice how quickly Carson turned that
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around and then went right back to the book?
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I mean, come on, Carson.
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Speaker 5: He's a pro.
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I appreciate this.
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Speaker 3: So okay, so I don't care if you're brand new.
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I love that this is called first time manager sales.
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I don't think you're brand new or you've got a lot of years of
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experience and you're a grizzled old sales guy like me.
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Like, this is a blueprint for everything selling and what
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amazes me.
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So, mike, when I got first promoted years ago, I gifted
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myself sales management simplified.
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How do you sit down to write these Like, what are your?
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Because obviously things have changed a lot from a sales
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perspective?
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Yeah, how do you sit down and really, what was your big
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driving force behind first time sales manager and how do you
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start crafting the agendas and the messages for these?
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Speaker 5: Yeah Well, this one was easier in some ways and
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harder in other ways.
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It was easier because it's been eight years since I wrote and
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released sales management simplified and, while the basics
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and the fundamentals of leading a team have not changed in any
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way, shape or form, the truth is I had eight years more
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experience running around the world and dealing with sales
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leadership dysfunction and training managers and doing
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coaching and running people through cohorts where I got to
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live through their pain and their challenges and their
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successes.
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So the easy part was that I had fresh stories and perspective
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and perspective.
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The hard part was writing another book on sales management
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when you said everything you knew in the first book and I
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worked really hard.
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The first time I actually said this was in the first interview
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about this book.
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This is my best book and it's really hard to say that when you
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love your other books and they're what put you on the map.
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But this is my thinnest book because I'm more experienced and
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it's going to sound kind of weird, but I was able to trim
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the fat and get this down to like the the you know, brass
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tacks, base fundamentals.
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My promise is to new and experienced leaders if you do
00:11:20
what's in here you're going to win Because this is I mean, it's
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the simplest prioritization of what our most important jobs are
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as a sales leader, and with some frameworks and techniques
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about how to do those important jobs and how to become a smart
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talent manager and how to avoid like doing everybody's job on
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your team and being the hero and burning out and killing your
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culture.
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So you know, it's hard to write a book when you're busy.
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In fact, people keep asking me, mike, do you have another one
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in you?
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And I was like I don't know, maybe later when I slow it down
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and I'm in pseudo retirement.
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It's really hard when you're working at the pace that you and
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I work Carson, to find the time to do quality writing.
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And I have friends in the industry, anthony Anarino, I
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mean he's on like his 13th blog post, right, like he's been
00:12:02
writing a blog post every day for 12 years.
00:12:05
It's some crazy-ass number.
00:12:07
Like my respect for his discipline is through the roof.
00:12:09
I don't have that kind of discipline, you know.
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I'd rather go play golf or put on a YouTube on cars or do
00:12:15
something like I can't.
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I don't have that type of thing .
00:12:17
So I don't know.
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I wrote it because the publisher asked me to.
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I wrote it because I have a heart for sales managers and I
00:12:22
see how hard their job is, whether they're new, and they're
00:12:25
like the deer and the headlights with everything
00:12:27
coming at them.
00:12:27
And a lot of times when I run an event, you know we have
00:12:30
season.
00:12:30
You said grizzled leaders that come to these events and I've
00:12:34
had grown men like 55, 60 year old men cry and just say I can't
00:12:37
do this anymore.
00:12:38
280 emails a day.
00:12:40
Can I say shit in your show here or no?
00:12:43
Is that okay?
00:12:43
Speaker 3: You did it.
00:12:44
Speaker 5: Bullshit emails from CFOs with spreadsheets attached.
00:12:47
You know on one day they're yelling at you fill out the CRM,
00:12:49
get it up there.
00:12:50
The next day they're sending you a spreadsheet asking for a
00:12:52
forecast.
00:12:53
Dragon managers to virtual meeting after virtual meeting,
00:12:57
c-level executives who have completely lost sight of how a
00:13:00
sales manager should spend his or her time to move the needle
00:13:03
on culture and results.
00:13:03
So my heart has really shifted where I'm spending more time
00:13:07
with the sales leader because when you get the management
00:13:10
piece right, like when you get the culture and the leadership
00:13:13
and the coaching and the accountability right, everything
00:13:16
changes and you benefit from what I call the multiplier
00:13:18
effect right, because one great sales leader can make a huge
00:13:22
dent in the business because they're impacting all of the
00:13:24
people on their team and if they're building the right kind
00:13:27
of culture and they're maximizing the production of
00:13:29
their A-players and they're quickly addressing
00:13:31
underperformance and they're leading team meetings and
00:13:33
energizing equip and they actually make developmental
00:13:36
coaching not just reactive coaching when there's a crisis
00:13:39
or a giant opportunity, but proactive, intentional,
00:13:41
developmental coaching a priority, which is the first
00:13:44
thing every manager cancels when the crap hits the fan, like
00:13:47
when I see that happen.
00:13:48
I see business change and I see sales managers like have joy in
00:13:52
the satisfaction from running the business and developing
00:13:55
their people.
00:13:55
So I don't know that's a long answer, but you got me kind of
00:13:58
wound up there.
00:13:59
Speaker 3: No, I love it and I want to thank everybody again
00:14:01
for all the birthday wishes.
00:14:02
This is fun, Like I'm just sitting here like dressed down
00:14:06
and watching people give me shoutouts while talking to Mike
00:14:09
Weinberg.
00:14:11
Speaker 5: I agree with Mitch.
00:14:11
Mitch almost asked you to marry him in this episode.
00:14:15
Speaker 3: I love you man.
00:14:15
Shake and bake, brother, shake and bake.
00:14:17
So, mike, I got to ask this.
00:14:18
It's kind of a chicken and egg scenario, because I'm a big
00:14:21
believer that the leadership sets the tone for the culture
00:14:24
right, and sometimes it's lack thereof.
00:14:26
That is, in essence, what forces someone who may be newly
00:14:29
minted as a manager to feel like they have to be the hero,
00:14:31
because it's the only rhythm and only way they know.
00:14:33
And I got the gist from you and I appreciate kind of your being
00:14:38
forthcoming in this.
00:14:39
I had the same experience.
00:14:40
I was promoted very early in my career when I was in my 20s and
00:14:44
you know, multiple times, and then later I came back to being
00:14:46
an IC and then I got back into leadership.
00:14:49
But I really realized in my 20s like I was completely driving
00:14:53
as the hero.
00:14:53
I had to, and I think I learned the hard way that that was not
00:14:57
the way.
00:14:57
So as I reinvented myself as a manager later in my life, I was
00:15:01
much better at it.
00:15:01
But I think the leadership sets the tone.
00:15:04
You've got to have good sales leadership that empowers and
00:15:07
enables your people to lead correctly and to train you
00:15:10
properly.
00:15:11
How could we as leaders today, how can we create and nurture
00:15:15
that type of a culture that enables our leaders to not have
00:15:18
to feel like they've got to be the hero.
00:15:20
Speaker 5: It's such a deep question and I'm going to take a
00:15:22
different tactic as I approach the answer than I've done before
00:15:25
, because you said a few things that sparks some thinking for me
00:15:27
.
00:15:27
I think the first part of my answer has to do with the leader
00:15:31
.
00:15:31
Particularly the newer leader has to have a very high degree
00:15:34
of self-awareness, because some of the thing that causes you to
00:15:38
play hero is what made you great as an individual contributor
00:15:42
Ego drive, perfectionism.
00:15:45
Those three just popped up in my head Ego, drive and
00:15:48
perfectionism.
00:15:49
We love that in an individual contributor and if your ego is a
00:15:53
little bit too big when you're in sales, it actually, I think,
00:15:55
works to your benefit.
00:15:56
You know you have a little bit like Teflon.
00:15:58
You enjoy the applause and the limelight and you know you let
00:16:02
the criticism kind of bounce off you.
00:16:03
But when you bring a high ego into a leadership role, that
00:16:07
gets old really fast.
00:16:08
Like nobody wants to work for the guy or the gal that's
00:16:11
stealing the credit and putting themselves on the stage and
00:16:14
bragging about what my team has done Right, and there are
00:16:17
certain themselves at the last minute in every deal so they can
00:16:19
say they saved it.
00:16:22
One of the great executives I worked with.
00:16:23
He said you know, what's really important is when the senior
00:16:26
leader hears from a sales manager.
00:16:28
Hey, boss, you know.
00:16:29
I just want to let you know I saved the deal.
00:16:31
I jumped in the last minute, I turned the whole presentation
00:16:33
around, I handled the negotiation.
00:16:35
I got that deal for us.
00:16:36
Instead of applauding the manager, which is what most
00:16:40
executives do, the right thing to do is, hey, that's great, I'm
00:16:43
thankful we saved the deal.
00:16:44
Can I ask you why were we in that situation and what kind of
00:16:48
coaching were you doing of your team member beforehand and were
00:16:51
you guiding them or like, were you developing?
00:16:54
Do you not have sufficient talent on your team?
00:16:55
Well, you feel like you've got to step in.
00:16:57
So all of that ego, drive, perfectionism, pressure to
00:17:03
produce numbers those things conspire where people who are
00:17:07
really successful on their own they're now leading a team and
00:17:10
the pressure and the legacy way of operating it gets them in
00:17:14
this mindset well, if it's going to get done, I got to do it and
00:17:18
I'll grant this Carson.
00:17:19
For the short term, a leader can play the team hero and do
00:17:24
everybody's job, and the way I like to contrast it is it's
00:17:26
doing versus either leading, coaching or holding accountable.
00:17:30
And, in the short term, the leader.
00:17:32
If you've got seven or eight people in your team, you can try
00:17:34
to solve for all of them and you can get into a lot of big
00:17:37
meetings and you can dictate when you're doing presentation
00:17:40
prep instead of coaching and asking leading questions, but at
00:17:43
some point that is not a sustainable or scalable model.
00:17:46
You can't work that many hours.
00:17:48
You can't do seven people's jobs Plus.
00:17:49
You're running off your top talent.
00:17:51
Nobody wants to work for the control freak.
00:17:53
You know Liz Wiseman calls these people the diminisher in
00:17:56
her book multipliers, like it's the opposite of the kind of
00:17:59
leader you want to work with.
00:18:00
So the danger is going back to the question.
00:18:04
You don't really know that you do these things until you get in
00:18:07
the role and you're a leader and no one warns you that this
00:18:10
is coming, because the things we used to applaud you for when
00:18:14
you were on stage at the president's club getting the
00:18:16
trophy are now the things that actually hurt you when you're
00:18:20
supposed to be leading and developing other people, and
00:18:23
that is massive.
00:18:26
Speaker 2: You know it's interesting listening to this,
00:18:27
mike.
00:18:27
One's a comment and then I have a question is listening to?
00:18:32
What you're talking about is not just a situation or an issue
00:18:35
in sales management, but just in startup business or
00:18:38
entrepreneurs in general?
00:18:39
Right, you have somebody who has been a hero or a superstar
00:18:43
in a certain area now tries to run a business, have multiple
00:18:46
people working under him same sort of challenges, just
00:18:49
different situations and different things that are there.
00:18:52
But the question I have is I think that you know and I've
00:18:57
worked in a lot of sales organizations, coached,
00:18:59
consulted with a lot of organizations the sales manager
00:19:02
is kind of a forgotten role.
00:19:03
It's not a role that's given, at least in my history, a lot of
00:19:07
attention or maybe even importance.
00:19:10
Are you seeing that changing?
00:19:11
I mean, obviously, as people read and consume more of your
00:19:14
content, but are you seeing that shift occurring in companies,
00:19:17
realizing that this is more important?
00:19:21
Speaker 5: Not enough.
00:19:21
Not enough, I mean Carson, I'm sure has a take here.
00:19:24
No, in fact, I said this to a client yesterday.
00:19:26
I was in a boardroom for a couple of days planning the
00:19:29
rollout of some content.
00:19:29
They were using my video series and we were planning like a
00:19:32
year of training for this big organization and I made the
00:19:35
comment out loud.
00:19:35
I said if the world had better sales managers because we were
00:19:39
developing them and the C-suite had a better understanding of
00:19:41
how important the sales manager was, I would have a lot less
00:19:44
training business and I would be okay with that.
00:19:47
So many of the sales things that ails sales today, things that
00:19:50
are broken, are due to sales management and effectiveness.
00:19:53
Look at all the amateur salespeople doing show up and
00:19:56
throw up, spray and pray, demo without discovery, coming across
00:20:00
like a vendor, not a value creator, not consultative.
00:20:02
Yes, man, yes, women, do whatever the customer says.
00:20:05
I call all those things selling like amateurs and I'm telling
00:20:10
you, 80% of the reason that happens is because managers
00:20:13
don't work alongside their people anymore.
00:20:14
And so, to answer your question , no, I don't see it shifting, I
00:20:18
don't see the wake up.
00:20:18
I feel like there's a few of us , you know, banging this drum
00:20:23
about the importance of the sales manager.
00:20:25
But and it's rare, I mean it's rare where I get a call from a
00:20:27
big name company that we all know the name of and they're
00:20:30
like hey, could you come in and do a little sales management
00:20:32
assessment?
00:20:32
And would you, could we gather our leaders in a few regions of
00:20:35
the globe and can we do the best practices on culture and
00:20:38
accountability and coaching?
00:20:39
Because in my opinion that's what moves the needle.
00:20:41
I mean I get 100 calls for sales training.
00:20:44
The one call about can you come do a little assessment of sales
00:20:48
management and help my people be better coaches and better
00:20:51
leaders and whole people accountable, and I mean the
00:20:54
multiplier effect.
00:20:55
I said that before, if you get that right.
00:20:56
So no, I don't see it changing and it it's good news for my
00:21:01
business and my book sales.
00:21:02
It's bad news for sales.
00:21:03
I rather it would be the other way around.
00:21:05
I find some other way to make money in sales.
00:21:08
But no, I'm, it's the disrespect , it's the low view.
00:21:11
You know, clean up an aisle, three, send the sales manager.
00:21:14
You know, I mean that's, that's kind of them.
00:21:16
That's the view of it in a lot of places and I am a friend in
00:21:19
South Africa.
00:21:19
I got a couple friends in South Africa, some of the smartest
00:21:22
sales management gurus Alan Verschdeck and Tony Cross and we
00:21:26
were doing an event in London last year and Tony Tony put Alan
00:21:30
up there who's really funny and he said something to the group.
00:21:33
He said we were better sales managers collectively in the
00:21:36
1980s, before email, before cell phones, where we were called in
00:21:41
field sales managers and all we did was rotate through working
00:21:46
with our people, getting in their cars, prepping with them
00:21:49
having dinner, having a beer, having a coffee, challenging
00:21:52
them about their territory, asking about their account list,
00:21:54
prepping for big meetings, debriefing after the meeting
00:21:57
like challenging them.
00:21:58
I mean, think about that.
00:22:00
I mean and this is this is the part blows my mind in the old
00:22:03
days and I mean when I was younger, before this was great
00:22:07
15 years ago I would hear managers brag about how they
00:22:12
developed their people.
00:22:13
I inherited this girl.
00:22:14
She was totally messed up.
00:22:16
Last, no one taught her anything.
00:22:17
She was on the on a plan.
00:22:19
I got her on my team, I doubled down, I spent more time where
00:22:23
we traveled, we wrote plans, I held her accountable, I coached
00:22:26
her.
00:22:26
Today she's going to president's club or I got this
00:22:29
young rookie kid at a school.
00:22:31
He didn't know anything, he was all green.
00:22:32
I spent some time with him and today, man, he's on the track to
00:22:35
be the star.
00:22:36
Like that was a common sales management brag 15 years ago.
00:22:40
Do you know?
00:22:41
I don't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever hear a manager brag
00:22:45
by.
00:22:46
They turned someone around.
00:22:46
Today they're not even on their radar because they're buried in
00:22:49
all that corporate crap, sitting in virtual meetings,
00:22:52
getting yelled at about spreadsheets and all this money
00:22:56
going to now I'm going to get.
00:22:57
Now I'm getting mad.
00:22:57
Like all this money going to sales enablement and tools and
00:23:00
garbage and you know all the hacks online and and like what
00:23:05
about getting in the car with someone or getting in the
00:23:07
bullpen?
00:23:07
When we used to go to work before, we decided that people
00:23:10
don't need to work together.
00:23:10
We should all just live virtually, like all that stuff
00:23:13
was valuable, and today we it's not happening, and no one like
00:23:18
I'm trying to preach, and so are a few others, but where's the
00:23:21
wake up call that the manager's job is to develop his or her
00:23:24
people?
00:23:26
Speaker 3: That's a great call out.
00:23:27
I mean, one of my favorite things ever of sales leadership
00:23:30
was the person that needed me to jump into just about every
00:23:33
customer meeting that they had when we first started working
00:23:35
together, and then the eventual moment when they didn't need me
00:23:38
at all anymore Brandon what is your?
00:23:40
Take.
00:23:41
Speaker 4: You know, my brain's going through history,
00:23:45
everything Mike's saying.
00:23:46
I'm thinking of this experience , that experience, this
00:23:48
experience I mean I've got.
00:23:50
I didn't know how to ask the question because I feel like
00:23:53
it's not an answerable question, but I keep coming back to you
00:23:57
know, we, we, we had a season where we really looked a lot at
00:24:01
personality profiles, like Tom and I were talking about this
00:24:04
the other day.
00:24:05
I used a tool called the Simmons Survey, that in hiring
00:24:09
people, because it showed what their tendencies were, what did
00:24:13
they tend towards and what did they tend to move away to.
00:24:16
And it feels like I mean I think everybody will agree with
00:24:20
this you take, you take the best salesperson and then you move
00:24:24
them into sales management without any thought of how is
00:24:27
this person going to be as a leader.
00:24:29
And so I don't know if there's a question or a statement here.
00:24:32
I don't know how to break that cycle, like I learned from when
00:24:38
I had a really bad sales leader in my first sales job.
00:24:43
A friend of mine's dad had said something to me.
00:24:46
He's like you know, as a sales leader, we're supposed to take
00:24:50
responsibility for all the mistakes and celebrate the team
00:24:54
for all the victories, and your boss is the exact opposite and
00:24:59
he's like I would move on.
00:25:01
You know you're young, you're impressionable, you're trying to
00:25:03
I'd move on and I did, and I and I chose that.
00:25:05
But I've always had that in my mind when I've been in
00:25:08
leadership roles is I need to build them up, you know, get rid
00:25:13
of the ego and and let them enjoy all the victories and know
00:25:17
that my paycheck was going to, you know, be good enough.
00:25:20
For me, it was more their victories, my paycheck increase,
00:25:24
and like, what do we do?
00:25:26
I mean, I know that's what your book's about, but how do we
00:25:29
break this, because there's so many layers of crap from the
00:25:33
spreadsheets, from the CFO and everything else.
00:25:35
Like, how do we break this?
00:25:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I mean you said so much and almost
00:25:39
didn't need a question at the end.
00:25:40
Sorry, it was powerful in the way you framed it, cause it's
00:25:43
the truth and it's everything from taking our best salesperson
00:25:46
and making them a manager, without really considering
00:25:49
whether they have the makeup to succeed and whether they'll
00:25:52
enjoy the job.
00:25:52
There's a, there's a young guy in sales super star named
00:25:56
Dominic Testo that, of course, is probably met him because
00:25:58
we're friends and we always he might be on.
00:26:00
Speaker 3: He might be on the show he's probably here.
00:26:01
Speaker 5: You know he, the guy's a rock star individual
00:26:03
contributor and he's been asked to go into management.
00:26:05
He's debated it for years and he read the book, even by
00:26:08
chapter two.
00:26:09
He caught me up and he's like are you okay, when I write my
00:26:11
review of this book, if I say, mike, thank you, you've affirmed
00:26:15
my decision to stay as an individual contributor.
00:26:17
I love the fund, the freedom and the financial rewards and I
00:26:19
don't want what you're describing and I'm like you're
00:26:22
brilliant, know thyself right.
00:26:23
Yeah, like so.
00:26:25
So part of where you're going, brandon, is like we need to do a
00:26:27
better job painting a picture of what the real job is.
00:26:29
And then I'm clueless and I hate to say it this way.
00:26:32
I don't know the answer of how we're going to manage up better.
00:26:36
To help the people in the corner office and in the ivory
00:26:39
tower understand how we should be spending.
00:26:41
We meaning sales leaders, frontline leaders spend in our
00:26:44
time, because that's where the battle, and I spent a lot of
00:26:46
time helping frontline managers manage up and get their bosses
00:26:50
committed to their priorities and their plans.
00:26:52
One of my favorite podcast guests, one of the best clients
00:26:54
I've ever had, got named Dennis Sorensen and he says you really
00:26:58
got to manage up by getting your boss to sign off on what your
00:27:02
priorities are.
00:27:03
So the following week, when three other people in the
00:27:06
company send you 94 emails and give you all this work to do,
00:27:09
that's going to take, you know, five weeks to accomplish.
00:27:11
You got to bring that to your boss and go question you and I
00:27:15
agreed these four things are what's going to move the needle,
00:27:17
and I just got assigned five weeks of work from other people
00:27:21
in the company that want me to work on this.
00:27:22
Would you like to help me prioritize this, because I can't
00:27:25
do it all and we're not having that conversation with enough
00:27:29
spine at this point, if that makes sense.
00:27:34
Speaker 3: So, mike, brings out everybody.
00:27:35
There's Dominic.
00:27:36
I knew he would be on today.
00:27:37
Mike brings out everybody.
00:27:38
Great comments from the chat too, from Dave.
00:27:41
I worked side by side with salespeople.
00:27:45
That's how I was mentored.
00:27:46
That's what it all comes down to is, I think a lot of it it
00:27:49
has to come from the culture.
00:27:50
It has to be get you know one to the next, and if I think all
00:27:54
of us at some point I mean we've had those bad Apple managers
00:27:57
We've also hopefully had some greats and you take a little bit
00:28:00
from both right, you know what not to do and what to do, and I
00:28:04
think it all becomes part of our arsenal over time.
00:28:06
Speaker 2: There was another great question, tom, I think
00:28:07
yeah, I wanted to hit a couple of these because there's some
00:28:09
good ones here.
00:28:10
We'll hit James first.
00:28:11
Is you know James is asking how do you navigate the leadership
00:28:15
view about how much reps make?
00:28:17
Do you think that's the cause of a barrier, I guess, to
00:28:21
investing more in dollars into reps, because, hey, they're
00:28:24
going to make too much money?
00:28:25
I think, james, that's the question you're you're asking
00:28:27
there.
00:28:30
Speaker 5: Who wants that one?
00:28:31
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be the case.
00:28:32
Well, that's all of these are my questions.
00:28:34
But that shouldn't be the case.
00:28:35
You know, as a leader, as a good leader, you should want
00:28:38
your team to get paid as much as their worth.
00:28:41
And I think, frankly, that goes back to, mike, what you were
00:28:43
just saying about Dominic's decision.
00:28:44
You know, I think when you make that move into leadership, you
00:28:47
know that you will take a pay cut ultimately.
00:28:49
You're doing it because you want to multiply and you want to
00:28:52
enable people to be their best selves and you want to help them
00:28:54
find success, ideally success that you had.
00:28:57
I mean, frankly, the fact that I was an IC as long as I was.
00:29:00
That's one of my favorite jobs I've ever done.
00:29:03
Yes, but it gave me the credibility to be in the role
00:29:06
that I'm in today.
00:29:07
I have credibility walking into the room, but it's not my job
00:29:10
to tell people how to do their job.
00:29:11
It's my job to uncover their unique superpowers and make them
00:29:14
the best that they can be by figuring out whatever gaps they
00:29:16
have, where they want to go if they want to get promoted, et
00:29:19
cetera, so on and so forth.
00:29:20
But I expect my team to make a lot more money than me.
00:29:23
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I get very concerned, karsten, when I hear
00:29:25
the opposite, when I'm in the corner office and I hear
00:29:30
begrudging the checks that we're issuing to the sales team.
00:29:33
It's only one of two causes Either we have an accountant or
00:29:37
an engineer or an arrogant, brilliant person who founded a
00:29:40
company who doesn't value sales as a function and they think my
00:29:44
thing is so brilliant any idiot could go sell it, which always
00:29:47
scares me when I get that attitude.
00:29:50
But the other thing is it's poorly constructed compensation
00:29:53
plans.
00:29:53
The plan should not only drive the desired behaviors and
00:29:57
results, but we should love love writing the biggest fat ass
00:30:02
checks possible to salespeople because they earned the money.
00:30:06
It wasn't a check for babysitting, it wasn't just for
00:30:09
renewing, it was someone who worked, they penetrated, they
00:30:12
upsold, they cross-sold, they found new logos, they broke
00:30:15
their way in, they created business that's my favorite word
00:30:17
in sales proactive and create.
00:30:20
If the comp plan is structured that we highly compensate people
00:30:23
who earn the business by creating and closing new sales.
00:30:28
That's why I call it new sales, simplified.
00:30:30
What's possibly could be wrong with that right?
00:30:34
Particularly in some of these accounts where you're dealing
00:30:36
with not just ARR but lifetime value of a customer.
00:30:40
You look at that's worth to the organization.
00:30:42
Is it not worth paying very handsomely to the hunter who's
00:30:46
going to go bring that business in to reward them so they have a
00:30:50
significant carrot to keep them hungry and drive the behavior?
00:30:54
Smart comp plans.
00:30:55
I'll just go for 30 more seconds on this.
00:30:57
I often have conversations with senior leaders that sometimes I
00:31:01
think the compensation, the variable piece, should decrease
00:31:05
over time, because why would you keep paying someone crazy money
00:31:08
to renew and babysit and serve their friends that we sold a
00:31:11
decade ago at the same money as to go that heavy lifting of
00:31:15
really penetrating or really opening a new account?
00:31:18
I think we need to be smart with compensation so it not only
00:31:22
drives the behavior but everybody wins the company and
00:31:25
the salesperson.
00:31:27
Speaker 3: So another amazing thing about this episode is the
00:31:29
all-star cast of people in the comments Brent Tillman hi, brent
00:31:33
.
00:31:33
Sales leader doesn't give their reps fish, they teach them to
00:31:37
reel in whales Powerful.
00:31:41
Speaker 5: But you know, to Brent's comment and hello Brent,
00:31:43
I've recommended many people to you lately who have asked about
00:31:46
LinkedIn and how to be better in terms of using LinkedIn as a
00:31:49
tool for selling, and the comment about catching fish
00:31:55
versus teaching someone to become a proficient fisherman.
00:31:58
It's really a challenge because sales managers are so
00:32:01
challenged for their time right now and it's just easier and
00:32:05
it's more expedient.
00:32:06
Oftentimes it's to just go do the deal, get it done, close it,
00:32:10
as opposed to investing in the person to make them better.
00:32:13
And I'll just tell one quick story.
00:32:14
That's in the book.
00:32:15
It's in the chapter on not being the team hero.
00:32:18
I'm leading this giant workshop for a big company, not about 130
00:32:22
young sales leaders in the room .
00:32:24
This is kind of a company where they hire you out of college
00:32:26
and if you're good, three or four years later you're a
00:32:28
frontline manager.
00:32:29
So I had a bunch of people in their late 20s in this room and
00:32:33
this girl told the story how she , in her first year, was so
00:32:36
overzealous as a sales leader.
00:32:37
She sold for all her people and two of them made it to the
00:32:40
president's club because she was committed to having her team be
00:32:43
successful.
00:32:43
And she's telling the story and we're like why are you telling
00:32:46
this?
00:32:46
What's the big deal?
00:32:47
And she paused and she goes and this last year I had to fire
00:32:50
both of those people because I realized I was doing their job
00:32:54
for them.
00:32:54
They didn't make president's club.
00:32:55
I made president's club for them and when I took my hand off
00:33:00
the wheel and I started trying to coach and develop and let
00:33:02
them do their own thing, they weren't even capable.
00:33:04
They were the wrong people.
00:33:05
And it's just that lesson like because no one decided to teach
00:33:07
them how to fish and then so she was catching the fish.
00:33:10
She didn't even know they were in the wrong role.
00:33:12
So a lot of danger when you do your salespeople's job.
00:33:16
Speaker 3: So if we went back in time and we told Mike Weinberg
00:33:19
a few years back that he'd eventually be on a show that had
00:33:21
social selling and the title, you might think he'd go in a
00:33:24
completely tangential area.
00:33:27
Mike had some big statements about social selling a few years
00:33:30
back, but they're very valid because it was.
00:33:32
There was a trend that was out and there was an article that
00:33:35
Mike wrote and I know he got a lot of traction on that article
00:33:38
and rightfully so, because it called out all of the just bad
00:33:40
behavior, and I know this is something that Brandon talks
00:33:43
about a lot.
00:33:43
I'd love to hear from Mike and Brandon on this topic.
00:33:46
But you know, mike, when social selling became this big thing a
00:33:51
few years back and it was this whole get rid of all the you
00:33:54
know relationship building, get rid of the cold calling you know
00:33:57
you do this social selling mechanism, you make these posts
00:34:00
and you're going to be rich.
00:34:00
How is social selling, or at least maybe what social selling
00:34:05
is known for and like its reputation in the mainstream
00:34:08
sales area, how is it modified over the years and what are your
00:34:11
thoughts on it today?
00:34:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, first of all, I love how you frame the question
00:34:14
and you're one of the reasons that it's modified.
00:34:16
Let's be honest, it's some of it is the role you're playing in
00:34:19
the community and you're continually beating the drum for
00:34:22
the how it's could be done properly.
00:34:24
And you, you, actually.
00:34:26
I was thinking of this answer all day because I have friends
00:34:28
that are already like Mike.
00:34:29
You're going to talk about social selling, like the crap in
00:34:32
my own inbox right now is like you.
00:34:34
They invited you to talk about social selling.
00:34:35
Yeah, especially after what I wrote in sales truth.
00:34:40
You started the answer by saying this because, initially, what
00:34:44
social selling was was a replacement.
00:34:46
You're all idiots, you're dinosaurs, you're Luddites.
00:34:50
You're going to bother people, you're going to pick up the
00:34:53
phone, initiate contact, don't you know?
00:34:55
Today you can take selfie videos and you could blog and
00:34:58
you could comment and get in people's inbox and you could do
00:35:01
all this other stuff to social engineer and when they're ready,
00:35:03
when they're 57% through their buying process, they'll come
00:35:07
running to you with money and hands.
00:35:08
And, what's interesting, those people were were preaching it's
00:35:12
a replacement.
00:35:12
And I said very early on and so do some of my friends who took
00:35:15
out this battle with me, it's not a replacement, it's a
00:35:19
supplement.
00:35:19
The old is good and the new is good and you should use.
00:35:23
You know if everyone's heard the channel right, like we just
00:35:25
had this conversation with someone the other day.
00:35:26
So the difference is the Charlotte tins that were the
00:35:30
founders of the movement by the way, none of them are still in
00:35:33
the sales industry and I won't say their names.
00:35:36
But the guy who called himself the pioneer of social selling
00:35:40
we've seen him on LinkedIn for four years begging for a job,
00:35:42
okay.
00:35:43
And the woman who named her firm hashtag social selling,
00:35:46
gone doing real estate somewhere else out of Silicon Valley, and
00:35:50
I could go through the list.
00:35:51
And there were some more modern names I could share people that
00:35:53
started.
00:35:54
There was a guy that you know was a chief sales officer of a
00:35:57
company that to claim they were the digital sales transformation
00:35:59
people and he was talking about Kylie Jenner is going to be a
00:36:02
billionaire on her social media efforts.
00:36:04
You see, the cold calling isn't as effective as social media
00:36:06
and I'm like Kylie Jenner posting half naked selfies of
00:36:10
herself selling makeup is my example as a corporate
00:36:13
salesperson in a business Like you're really making that
00:36:15
argument.
00:36:16
That's social selling, like.
00:36:17
Are you stupid Like.
00:36:18
So all those people are out and the people that are left are
00:36:24
the Larry Levine's talking about .
00:36:25
Be authentic, build a brand, carson, what you're doing, the
00:36:29
store.
00:36:29
You told on my podcast about the number of contacts you had in
00:36:33
that giant like lifetime deal that you got with your massive
00:36:35
account and how long and how long it took and the depth that
00:36:39
you built from using LinkedIn and social engineering.
00:36:41
So I think that's a long answer because I felt like I had to
00:36:44
give the context because of where I was on this.
00:36:46
But it's evolved to the place where no one's talking about as
00:36:50
a replacement and was interesting because of the
00:36:53
damage that was done to pipelines and results.
00:36:55
Now everybody says we should prospect, we should initiate
00:36:58
contact.
00:36:59
They're not.
00:36:59
They're not misquoting the challenge or sale research
00:37:01
anymore and we have these great new tools and videos.
00:37:05
Incredible, and I have I mean I would be a hypocrite Most of my
00:37:08
relationships come from social.
00:37:09
That's why I met you Right and a lot of these relationships
00:37:13
have turned into real life friendships or clients.
00:37:15
So it's the blending of all ways and if you can learn more
00:37:20
and become warmer and be a better investigator and have a
00:37:25
relationship, I mean I have people that I barely know, but
00:37:28
because we commented on each other's Instagram posts.
00:37:31
I'm a guy who's in my industry.
00:37:32
I've seen him one time in person and I would tell you
00:37:35
we're good friends.
00:37:36
And I mean the day he dropped his daughter off for college and
00:37:40
he posted something and I sent him a little private message.
00:37:42
I'm like, dude, I've been there and every tier you shed today
00:37:45
is valuable.
00:37:46
Like I get it, like all of that was social, so I'll yield.
00:37:51
But I think it's evolved hugely .
00:37:53
Where it's part of the mainstream, one of many tools,
00:37:58
you better use it.
00:37:59
You better be smart.
00:38:00
Speaker 3: Well, the comments are any indicator.
00:38:02
Everybody agrees with you, brandon.
00:38:04
I want to hear your thoughts.
00:38:07
Speaker 4: I don't know.
00:38:07
I like Mike soapbox.
00:38:09
I'd like to just like scoot him over a little and jump on it.
00:38:12
I mean I feel like I should have worn my social selling suck
00:38:15
shirt today.
00:38:15
You know it's.
00:38:17
Yeah, it's in.
00:38:18
Mike used a really important word.
00:38:20
It was the charlatans in the early stages of it.
00:38:23
And I think, looking at Social as a medium or as a channel to
00:38:30
use the tried and true existing sales principles of offering
00:38:36
value and building relationships and doing discovery and
00:38:40
learning and research, it's fine , but it was the way people were
00:38:45
using it.
00:38:45
It was.
00:38:46
It was kind of like I said this one time on on stage is like
00:38:49
remember, with fax machines and there were the charlatans end
00:38:53
that all of a sudden it was spamming.
00:38:54
Fax out to people, right Facts, was a great tool at the time,
00:38:59
but it was a way people used it and I think it's the same way
00:39:02
and it's you know, tom and I keep working on and building and
00:39:05
and I don't know if we feel like it's baked or part baked or
00:39:09
will never be fully Baked.
00:39:11
But we look at this, this revenue operating system, with a
00:39:15
social Element to it and, and even though I like social first
00:39:22
and a lot of areas.
00:39:23
It doesn't mean social only, and I think we're still dealing
00:39:27
with that stigma People that said, oh well, we tried social
00:39:31
and it didn't work.
00:39:32
No, you didn't try social, you tried charlatan, hack, crap,
00:39:36
pitch-slappy shit.
00:39:38
That didn't work and you threw it into a big category of social
00:39:43
selling doesn't work and you never looked at it again because
00:39:47
you got burned one time.
00:39:48
Well, it's time to back up.
00:39:50
We got to pick up on our big boy and big girl underwear and
00:39:53
say what is valuable here?
00:39:56
And let's take the time to weed out the garbage, figure out
00:40:00
where the good soil is and leverage it.
00:40:03
So that means personal brands are important, because personal
00:40:07
brand means reputation.
00:40:09
Our Communications have always been important.
00:40:12
How much is our team getting in front of people has always been
00:40:16
important.
00:40:16
We we categorize is how many calls did you make in a day?
00:40:19
What about how many conversations Did you create
00:40:22
today?
00:40:22
So I'll jump off my soapbox because I I that's that's
00:40:27
obviously the one that starts pissing me off, because people
00:40:31
threw things into a category that was crap, hack Activities,
00:40:35
put a label on it and then everything that was near that
00:40:38
label ended up, they believe, smelled like garbage.
00:40:41
Speaker 2: What was that, brandon?
00:40:42
I want to make sure we got that Charlotte Crap pack bullshit.
00:40:47
Was that the?
00:40:47
Was that what you?
00:40:48
Speaker 4: said it's in crap, hat bullshit.
00:40:50
I like it, I.
00:40:50
There's a new shirt.
00:40:51
Yeah, there's a new guys fired up today.
00:40:54
Speaker 3: This is amazing.
00:40:55
I'm loving the comments, tara, but how do you really feel to
00:40:59
Brandon?
00:40:59
This is, this is fantastic.
00:41:02
No, you know.
00:41:03
What's amazing, though Like because I always I always try to
00:41:06
really hold myself up is what I like to call a noble night of
00:41:09
the selling game.
00:41:10
I think it's a noble responsibility to get to de-risk
00:41:14
decisions and solve problems for Clients and customers, and
00:41:17
so I think that's the key element is that's what's helped.
00:41:20
Some of the you know from the ashes of the Charlotte's and
00:41:23
Crab hack has helped people to come up, do it responsibly and
00:41:27
garner a good reputation.
00:41:28
I mean, I wouldn't be where I am today without social selling,
00:41:32
but it was doing it right.
00:41:33
And don't get me wrong, I've made my fair share of mistakes.
00:41:36
I've sent stuff out, it was probably received as spammy, and
00:41:39
I've altered my approach as a result.
00:41:41
I've been doing it for a decade .
00:41:42
So, yeah, I think that's the key is, be willing to
00:41:46
Acknowledge that it it's got to be done with the customer and
00:41:49
helping the customer and serving the customer at the heart.
00:41:52
Speaker 4: But Carson, it's also just like we've.
00:41:54
We've made bad cold calls before.
00:41:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and then we've had to.
00:41:59
Speaker 4: We have yes that's true, but but I've made Bad cold
00:42:04
calls before and you don't throw the phone out because you
00:42:07
said something stupid on a cold call, right, right, and that's
00:42:10
that's what I think happened with a lot of this is the
00:42:13
charlatans.
00:42:14
The automation, the pitch, slap emails Sold people a pipe dream
00:42:18
that they were gonna press a button, it was gonna automate
00:42:21
for 24 hours a day and they were just gonna get PO's in their
00:42:24
inbox.
00:42:25
And it didn't work.
00:42:26
Speaker 5: Well, it didn't work because it was a stupid tactic,
00:42:29
not because it was a stupid medium, the maturity at the
00:42:32
wisdom of what you Just shared in the last minute of you don't
00:42:34
throw the phone out and the way you came back with that.
00:42:36
And that's exactly what happened.
00:42:37
The reason I picked aside and jumped in this battle is because
00:42:41
I wanted to shoot the charlatans, to defend the sales
00:42:44
people from the Failure that they were gonna face.
00:42:45
If they really thought that Gary V, as brilliant as he is,
00:42:50
drop an F bombs with his ski cap on the summer, take a selfie
00:42:53
videos was gonna get you appointments with C-suite people
00:42:56
Selling software like they would, you know it's not the
00:43:00
same.
00:43:00
It didn't translate the Kylie Jenner thing.
00:43:02
So I'm with you and here's where it really comes down to.
00:43:05
I guess and I've only been in the sales improvement world like
00:43:08
15 years, but I've seen there's been enough cycles there's
00:43:12
always the bandwagon jumpers in our industry that need to make a
00:43:16
living so they jump on what's hot today.
00:43:18
So there was the social selling bad wagon.
00:43:21
There was the account based selling bandwagon.
00:43:23
You went through it, right and it's, and I realized, oh, this
00:43:26
always is gonna happen.
00:43:26
The people that don't necessarily have a following
00:43:29
need to make a living, so they put their finger and they see
00:43:33
which way the wind's blowing and they oh, I'm the expert now in
00:43:35
this and I think that's what happened for a while and social
00:43:38
was really big.
00:43:38
It's kind of like AI today, except we all we know that AI is
00:43:42
legit and it is going to change the world and we're all
00:43:45
struggling with what that means.
00:43:46
But it's interesting.
00:43:48
I think the way people are talking about AI in our industry
00:43:51
is much more mature and I'm hearing like wise voices say you
00:43:57
better wake up, not like the old days.
00:43:59
Well, the sky is falling.
00:44:00
We're all gonna get replaced because they're gonna put in
00:44:02
kiosks everywhere.
00:44:03
No, I don't think that's gonna happen, but it's.
00:44:05
How are you using these tools to come up with better probing
00:44:07
questions, to role play, to do research, to maybe just crafting
00:44:10
like that?
00:44:11
But it's interesting I'm seeing people behave a little smarter
00:44:14
where it's not not everyone's out there with the shingle.
00:44:16
I'm now the AI sales expert, which is what we did see a
00:44:20
decade ago with social selling.
00:44:21
Speaker 2: So so, mike, yeah, kind of taking this full circle.
00:44:26
Going back to sales leadership and sales management, do you see
00:44:30
that's a key responsibility to help the team understand how to
00:44:34
use social, how to understand how to use AI and not, I guess,
00:44:39
abuse it from that perspective, and at the same time not
00:44:42
discarded as going, oh, it just doesn't work.
00:44:43
I mean, where does that balance fit in?
00:44:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, I think balance is the right word
00:44:47
and I will tell you that because I'm not the tools guy and I
00:44:51
stick to a very simple framework and fundamentals.
00:44:54
I don't go too far personally down that path with my clients.
00:44:56
I rather point them to you and to Brynn and to Carson and to
00:45:00
others, because I don't I I don't like speaking out of my
00:45:04
lane but I would say yes, but where I would also point to sale
00:45:08
yours.
00:45:08
We have better nailed down these fundamentals and if we can
00:45:12
use social as a vehicle, as a tool for a lot of important
00:45:16
things and I'm gonna listen when I'm talking with sales team In
00:45:20
my new sales simplified mindset, there's five things we got to
00:45:23
be able to do.
00:45:24
You got to nail down our target list or, again, strategic, and
00:45:26
we know who we're going after.
00:45:27
We need compelling messaging that's about issues we address
00:45:30
and outcomes we achieve for clients, not self-focused crap
00:45:33
about speeds, feeds, buildings, histories, legacy.
00:45:36
So, target list, compelling messaging.
00:45:38
The ability to get a meeting from proactive pursuit, which
00:45:42
with through any ethical, effective means, necessary,
00:45:45
sometimes job one, you know, send smoke signals and a carrier
00:45:48
page put a message in a bottle.
00:45:49
Use Twitter, use LinkedIn in appropriate ways, not, you know,
00:45:54
connect and pitch and bots and all the crap that's in our
00:45:57
inboxes every day, but telephone .
00:46:00
So targeting, messaging, proactive pursuit to get the
00:46:04
meeting run, a great early-stage discovery, consultative sales
00:46:07
call, and they're, for goodness sakes, on the calendar and the
00:46:09
pipeline like an adult.
00:46:11
And if you can master those five things, really good things
00:46:15
happen every time.
00:46:16
And if you lay on top of that the sales management principles
00:46:18
of Do accountability and do coaching and get the right
00:46:22
people in the role and don't play hero and support and
00:46:25
discriminate and Overserve your best people to help them win and
00:46:30
quickly coach up or coach out under performers, that's the
00:46:32
whole book.
00:46:32
If you do those things at the same time we're targeting,
00:46:36
messaging, pursuing, running consultative meetings and own
00:46:38
the counter, the pipeline.
00:46:39
I don't know anything else about sales.
00:46:41
What else?
00:46:41
Am I gonna write another book?
00:46:42
I don't know.
00:46:42
I've told you, I've said the same thing.
00:46:44
I don't have any more material because every time I get
00:46:48
involved, I don't care if it's the most complex company or it's
00:46:50
a little 20 million dollar company trying to break through
00:46:52
the ceiling in complexity.
00:46:53
When they do those basics that I just listed on sales
00:46:56
management and sales, they win.
00:47:00
Speaker 3: Spend a second talking to us about the activity
00:47:02
.
00:47:02
You know kind of the activity review that managers can and
00:47:06
should be doing with their team members and I think that kind of
00:47:09
actually some of what you just described fits into that
00:47:11
umbrella, right.
00:47:12
You know, as we as sales leaders, just the value that
00:47:15
that it, that it serves spending that time Reviewing some of the
00:47:19
activities that our team members are doing.
00:47:20
You know what are the tools that they're using, how are they
00:47:23
using them?
00:47:23
Right, because you know one tool may work really great for
00:47:26
somebody in my line of work but may not for some others.
00:47:29
So I think you all.
00:47:30
For the personalized activity review really comes into place.
00:47:33
Speaker 5: I'll do it, but first I have to say this to Bruce
00:47:35
Kirk captain Kirk, send me a direct message.
00:47:38
I'm sending you a sales Street t-shirt for your comment that I
00:47:40
shot the charlatan.
00:47:41
That is the absolute best comment, any event, I've ever
00:47:45
seen from any human.
00:47:46
Bruce, if you can hear me, send me a message and I'm sending
00:47:49
you Tales, truth, golf balls and t-shirt.
00:47:52
Okay, that's as good as it gets today.
00:47:55
You just made my day.
00:47:56
Captain Kirk A Carson asked me about accountability and what
00:48:00
that looks like.
00:48:01
I had a mentor who was my sales manager and then was my
00:48:06
business partner, named Donnie Williams.
00:48:08
Guy was freaking brilliant, love salespeople, understood the
00:48:11
heart of the salesperson but didn't like to micromanage.
00:48:14
He came up with this framework that helps you do great
00:48:17
accountability without micromanaging and killing
00:48:20
someone's freedom.
00:48:21
It's this little three-part framework.
00:48:23
I introduced it in Sales Management, simplified eight
00:48:26
years ago in Chapter 20.
00:48:28
What I say is in Chapter 3 here I say your most of all the
00:48:33
things I could have put in the first chapter, I was given
00:48:34
advice.
00:48:35
Chapter 1 says congratulations, you got the most important job
00:48:38
in the world.
00:48:38
You lead the team that drives revenue.
00:48:40
Chapter 2 says your new job ain't nothing like your old job,
00:48:43
buckle up.
00:48:44
That's the winning through your people kind of transition we
00:48:46
talked about.
00:48:47
Then, the very first chapter that I get into coaching, it's
00:48:50
Chapter 3.
00:48:51
I say your most important job is making sure your people do
00:48:54
their job.
00:48:55
I went a little fresher and deeper in a simpler way.
00:48:59
I explained this progression, results, pipeline activity.
00:49:04
We all know that activity drives pipeline.
00:49:08
If the person is talented and has skill, pipeline drives
00:49:11
results.
00:49:11
But where my mentor, donnie, was so brilliant, he flipped
00:49:14
that on its head and the meeting always starts with results.
00:49:17
Let's see where you stand.
00:49:18
How are you doing?
00:49:19
I'll show you how you're doing.
00:49:20
Let's look at where you stand on the team.
00:49:21
Where you're against your plan, against last year, you spend a
00:49:24
minute or two looking at results .
00:49:25
If they're great, you cheer.
00:49:26
If they're not, you look at the sales person and go, hey, what
00:49:29
happened?
00:49:29
You ranked eight out of nine people on our team.
00:49:32
What's going on?
00:49:32
You let them sweat it a little bit, because the job of a sales
00:49:35
manager is to transfer the burden for results from our
00:49:38
shoulder to the producer's shoulder.
00:49:40
The majority of this accountability meeting is spent
00:49:43
looking at the pipeline, because that's the lifeblood of the
00:49:45
business.
00:49:45
What's your coverage?
00:49:47
Are there enough deals in here.
00:49:48
Let's do some math together, not coaching the deal, but just
00:49:51
looking at numbers, data, not emotional data.
00:49:54
Then I like to ask what did you create?
00:49:57
What's new?
00:49:57
What are we working on?
00:49:58
We weren't working on it.
00:49:58
Of the longer-term deals, which did you advance?
00:50:02
What I'm telling you as sales leaders if you go through
00:50:04
results and you go through the pipeline with everybody every
00:50:07
month, there's nowhere to hide.
00:50:08
Sometimes you get with a sales person and after you've gone
00:50:13
through the pipeline, you look at them and they look at you and
00:50:15
they're like there ain't enough in here, is there?
00:50:17
Not only are you missing your number this quarter or last
00:50:20
month, we're looking at the current pipeline and there's not
00:50:24
enough business in here for you to make a number for this month
00:50:26
.
00:50:26
And now I'm concerned and I'm not cool with you failing.
00:50:30
Open up the CRM.
00:50:31
Grab me your business plan, show me the target list and get
00:50:34
your calendar.
00:50:34
Tell me what you did last month and this week and next week.
00:50:39
What is on the docket for you?
00:50:40
Because I'm concerned because your results stink and your
00:50:43
pipeline's weak.
00:50:44
I don't have anywhere else to turn my mentor, donnie.
00:50:47
Where his brilliance comes in is you.
00:50:49
Don't even ask that question until they've forced it to,
00:50:53
because the results of the pipeline led you to the
00:50:55
conclusion they're either not trying, which is a big problem,
00:50:59
or sometimes worse, there is a lot of activity but they don't
00:51:02
have the skill or the business acumen to turn those activities,
00:51:06
conversations, into real opportunities.
00:51:08
So, carson, thanks for asking.
00:51:10
I think we have two big levers coaching developing our people,
00:51:14
coaching the deal, coaching the skill, coaching life and
00:51:18
accountability, shining the light of truth on their actual
00:51:21
result and their pipeline.
00:51:22
And if we would do a better job with these two levers, we could
00:51:26
move the needle on culture results, regardless of who's on
00:51:29
our team.
00:51:30
So that's my strong opinion, love it.
00:51:35
Speaker 4: Love it.
00:51:37
Speaker 2: And I want to spotlight one comment that we
00:51:40
had a few minutes ago and, as we kind of wrap up here, one of
00:51:43
the things that Tim said is that you know, and we touched on
00:51:46
this right we talked about data with data and customer or
00:51:50
spreadsheets and all of that.
00:51:51
Mike, as I listened to you and I've been listening over the
00:51:54
last, you know, even the last few minutes what's hit me is and
00:51:58
maybe this is more in the tech world, but there's a confusion
00:52:00
between RevOps, or revenue operations, and sales management
00:52:03
and sales leadership, and you know, as you peel those two
00:52:09
apart, those are two very different jobs and very
00:52:11
different responsibilities that I think it all gets mashed up
00:52:14
together into one thing.
00:52:17
Speaker 5: Tom, no one is talking about what he just said.
00:52:19
I remember he said it that way, like that's a brilliant
00:52:21
assessment, because what's happened?
00:52:23
This is what I've seen, the big tech companies and you know
00:52:25
tech is like 10% of my business.
00:52:27
I'm in the industrial world, I'm in a lot of other places,
00:52:30
but I'm in enough tech companies and I get out to California
00:52:32
enough to have this feel.
00:52:35
There's always this confusion between the forecast and the
00:52:37
pipeline, and particularly if it's a public company and Carson
00:52:41
lives in this world, so he Carson correct me if I misspeak
00:52:45
but what's?
00:52:46
Because everyone's got short-term thinking and they got
00:52:48
to make the quarter and the CFO is freaking out and sending out
00:52:51
spreadsheets to the EVP of sales, who's then sending it
00:52:54
down to the front lines, the RVPs, and like it all.
00:52:57
It all the shit goes downhill.
00:52:58
Everyone is running around nuts talking about what they call
00:53:02
the outlook or the forecast, what deals are going to close
00:53:05
for the quarter.
00:53:06
That is not the same conversation I just articulated,
00:53:09
where you sit someone down and go, hey, would you put the
00:53:11
pipeline and what are we working and what did you advance?
00:53:13
Because that's the accountability conversation and
00:53:16
that gets completely lost in the tech or public company world
00:53:19
where I have to make the quarter .
00:53:21
No one's thinking about the pipeline and the health, they're
00:53:23
talking about the forecast.
00:53:24
And the way you just articulated that, where Rebops
00:53:27
gets confused with sales management, I think is
00:53:29
absolutely brilliant.
00:53:32
Speaker 3: I think most of the whether or not I'm going to make
00:53:35
the quarter was determined last quarter or the quarter before
00:53:38
that, based on what I put in the pipeline.
00:53:42
Speaker 4: But that's the way you think about it and the
00:53:44
problem is not enough people think about it right.
00:53:46
You see, too often companies, there's two weeks to go before
00:53:49
the quarter and all sales activity let me rephrase it the
00:53:57
right sales activity just gets thrown out the door and
00:54:01
everybody goes into fire drill to try and close deals.
00:54:05
And then they wonder why their customers are so fricking
00:54:09
confused as to really who they are and where the conversation
00:54:12
is going to go, because they think, oh, we're going to offer
00:54:14
you a 20% discount, but you got to close by this date and it
00:54:19
completely changes the relationship with their buyers
00:54:22
and their reputation and everything else, because it was
00:54:24
pushed down for a fire drill.
00:54:27
Speaker 3: Oh, it's hilarious because I'm the opposite of most
00:54:28
tech sellers and when I first started selling in tech, what I
00:54:32
hear from a lot of customers was you know, you're the biggest
00:54:34
check, right, I don't give you anymore.
00:54:36
Or the only time you ever show up is when you want our money.
00:54:39
So I try to take the most counterintuitive approach, to
00:54:41
say things like hey, I, it's my job to ensure that you're privy
00:54:45
to all the resources that you're entitled to because of your
00:54:47
significant investment.
00:54:48
And lo and behold, I could get any meeting I wanted because I
00:54:51
showed up with that mentality and that mantra zero tech
00:54:54
background.
00:54:54
So I started bringing in all the smart people.
00:54:56
I knew the smart people and I was successful because I was
00:54:59
resourceful, because of relationships, and that's it.
00:55:02
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I don't want don't lose this point.
00:55:04
And brand is little hand gesture was exactly the point,
00:55:07
and this is what's lost today.
00:55:08
With like a mentoring, you flip the whole thing on its head.
00:55:12
It wasn't about carcin and microsoft anymore, it was about
00:55:15
the client.
00:55:16
Your whole point, in the way you message to them and the way
00:55:20
you came across, is I'm here to work with you and I want to
00:55:22
maximize your outcome.
00:55:23
It was completely selfless in your sales approach and I mean
00:55:28
we all see it today with sales people.
00:55:30
There are people with business acumen and the presence that
00:55:32
understand how to come across like a consultant and a value
00:55:35
creator, but the majority of people in sales roles do not
00:55:38
sound like you sound.
00:55:39
I'm here because I'm under pressure to get a deal and I
00:55:43
gotta figure out what pain you might have.
00:55:44
So let me torture you because I gotta get you a proposal,
00:55:47
because I have a need to get a deal done, not when are you
00:55:50
struggling and what's going on?
00:55:51
By the way, your client I wanna make sure you're maximizing
00:55:54
your, your bed from being our client, like that's a night and
00:55:57
day difference.
00:55:57
Speaker 4: I don't know, brandon , you know what you want, like
00:55:59
this yeah, exactly.
00:56:01
And that all goes right back to your, your book, right?
00:56:04
We as managers?
00:56:05
They're not equipped To do the right thing at the right time
00:56:10
and stay the course.
00:56:11
And what I love I think I say this a lot times what I've
00:56:15
learned from carcin, what carcin does really well, is simply
00:56:19
this he just shifts the perspective, just enough, and it
00:56:24
completely changes the story, the narrative in the
00:56:26
conversation.
00:56:28
Speaker 3: Everything's gotta be all about the client.
00:56:29
I mean, it blows my mind sometimes that more people don't
00:56:34
take that approach or talk like that or sound like that,
00:56:37
because that's how a small town kid like me, a clown like me,
00:56:40
became the top Social seller in the biggest brand in the world.
00:56:43
Like you know, anybody can do it.
00:56:45
I'm not that special.
00:56:48
Speaker 4: You are marty mcflane junior you are.
00:56:50
Speaker 5: You are dreamy, don't forget you are dreamy, I want
00:56:54
to add one one thirty second point to carcin's wrap up
00:56:57
because I think it's so illustrative for what sales
00:56:59
managers need to be doing.
00:57:00
If we as leaders would spend more time in the field and in
00:57:05
customer calls and prepping for calls and debriefing after them
00:57:09
with our people, we can help them become the type of seller
00:57:12
that carcin is and why he's been so successful.
00:57:16
It was that brand, is that flip ?
00:57:17
Because if you're out there on your own, you don't even know
00:57:21
you're doing it, you don't see it.
00:57:22
But if your mentors with you and they care that you're
00:57:25
modeling for you or they challenge you about it, and that
00:57:28
changes performance.
00:57:29
So Salute, salute the whole conversation yeah, well, thank
00:57:34
you, my carcin.
00:57:35
Speaker 2: Did this live up to your, to your expectations for
00:57:38
your birthday episode?
00:57:39
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go out there and watch this again, as I
00:57:41
have a piece of cake and play with the dog and hang out with
00:57:45
the family.
00:57:46
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think the only thing left was tom was
00:57:50
gonna sing happy birthday, was gonna do a solo before we went
00:57:53
out.
00:57:53
Less, less mic.
00:57:55
Speaker 2: Mr president style yeah, no, I let lia do that.
00:58:00
She did a better job.
00:58:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all downhill from the cake today,
00:58:05
you guys, I did yourselves.
00:58:06
So, my, I don't even know if I can come back next week after
00:58:11
the.
00:58:11
How high of a show.
00:58:12
Speaker 5: This was the best I think you'll figure it out.
00:58:14
I think you'll figure it out.
00:58:15
Yeah.
00:58:16
Speaker 4: And my give a give a little pitch to your, your, your
00:58:20
, next event.
00:58:21
In it, lana says it's.
00:58:22
I was thinking it's next year, but it's right around the corner
00:58:25
is it is.
00:58:25
Speaker 5: We booked all the dates.
00:58:26
We keep going back to lana cuz they're so good to us.
00:58:28
People love that venue and we do three, four times a year.
00:58:33
Yeah, we need to come over.
00:58:34
We might.
00:58:35
We might have a little room for special guest brain, and so now
00:58:38
that we're buddies, I think we should have a conversation with
00:58:41
him okay, then you think carcin's gotta come to.
00:58:44
Three or four times a year I do an event called supercharger
00:58:47
sales leadership.
00:58:48
We limited to fifty people.
00:58:50
It's a premium venue.
00:58:52
We've currently been doing the last seven of them at the
00:58:54
portion experience center, which is truly the end of the runway
00:58:57
In atlanta at the airport, so any human can get there on one
00:59:00
flight.
00:59:00
We have people come truly from Dubai, we have people come from
00:59:03
london and then all over the us and it's just a full day
00:59:06
drinking from the fire hose on the keys from sales manager
00:59:10
simplified and now from the first time, manager sales and
00:59:14
some people come for two days and they stay in, drive cars the
00:59:16
next day and you get extra coaching and some other things
00:59:18
like that and it's.
00:59:19
Those are the most satisfying days of my career because
00:59:22
everyone in the room wants to be there and they bring their
00:59:24
heart and they share their challenges and frustrations and
00:59:27
we group problem solve and we we go deep on the topics we've
00:59:30
already addressed.
00:59:31
So you can find out more about the supercharger event or other
00:59:34
things I'm doing for sales leaders at Mike Weinberg dot com
00:59:37
and there's a little events tab on the menu.
00:59:39
You can Read out right there can I?
00:59:42
Speaker 4: can I book the first slot in that event, since I
00:59:44
don't have to get on a plane?
00:59:46
Speaker 5: you can call me a little side conversation here.
00:59:50
Speaker 2: Perfect, right, well, and I.
00:59:51
There's a couple questions about getting the recording.
00:59:53
Definitely also, if you want to get any of the past recordings,
00:59:57
it's pod Social selling two, two dot two zero.
01:00:01
Social selling two zero dot com and it's on all the podcast.
01:00:05
So please go go subscribe to social selling two dot.
01:00:09
Oh, and we're also on youtube and you get the replay here on
01:00:13
linkedin as well.
01:00:14
All right, well again, thanks again, mike.
01:00:16
Happy birthday to Carson.
01:00:18
Get the book at the book happy birthday to Carson.
01:00:21
Speaker 5: Go buy yourself a copy this book for Carson's
01:00:23
birthday.
01:00:24
Speaker 2: That's right, my publisher and I thank you,
01:00:27
carson.
01:00:27
Wrap us up here my thank you.
01:00:30
Speaker 3: Safe travels to my friend always a pleasure to see
01:00:33
you and Brandon tom man, thank you for a special show and for
01:00:38
everybody that was on.
01:00:39
Thank you all.
01:00:40
Steven, saw your comment good to see a brother.
01:00:42
Thanks for calling today and until next time happy social
01:00:46
selling.
01:00:46
Thanks everyone everybody.
01:00:50
Speaker 2: Hey tom Burton here and I wanted to personally thank
01:00:52
you for listening, for watching today's episode of social
01:00:56
selling two dot.
01:00:57
Oh.
01:00:57
If you enjoyed or found value in today's show, please share
01:01:01
with your friends and colleagues .
01:01:02
Also, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave a review on
01:01:06
itunes or your favorite podcast outlet.
01:01:09
And please also subscribe to our youtube channel and join our
01:01:13
free online community at social selling two zero dot com.
01:01:17
There you'll get free access to the latest social selling
01:01:21
resources, training sessions, webinars and can collaborate
01:01:25
with other social selling professions.
01:01:27
Thank you again for listening and I look forward to seeing you
01:01:31
in our next episode.
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