SS 2.0 - #58: Social Selling Simplified with Special Guest Mike Weinberg

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Social Selling 2.0 Live Show and

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Podcast, where each week, we explore the future of B2B sales.

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Social has changed the B2B and professional services landscape

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forever.

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Capturing and keeping buyer attention has never been more

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challenging.

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Our mission is to help you discover new strategies, new

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technologies, new go-to-market systems and stay up-to-date with

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what is working now in B2B sales.

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Your hosts are Carson Hedy, the number one social seller at

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Microsoft, tom Burton, a best-selling author and B2B

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sales specialist, and Brandon Lee, an entrepreneur with

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multiple seven and eight figure exits and a leading voice in

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LinkedIn social selling.

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Brandon and Tom also lead social selling 2.0 solutions,

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which offers turnkey consulting, coaching and training to B2B

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sales leaders.

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Now let's start the show.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode number 58, Social Selling 2.0.

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I am Tom Burton, along with birthday boy Carson.

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Hedy Carson, you're 29,.

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Did you say?

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Again, yes, again I thought you said he was 58.

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58.

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Well, that could be true.

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Thank you, Brad 58.

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Speaker 3: Goodness gracious.

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Speaker 2: And we have Brandon Lee and our special guest today,

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our special birthday guest, Mike Weinberg.

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Mike, welcome.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, Always happy to celebrate Carson.

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Speaker 3: If you asked nicely on your birthday you can get

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Mike Weinberg on your show.

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I am representing St Louis here .

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Two weeks in a row we got St Louis guest.

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Last week we had Christie Jones and then, of course, my main

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man, sean Connery, who died three years ago yesterday.

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Speaker 5: Hey, as long as you brought up Christie, I'm going

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to do a shameless plug for my friend and also St Louis and I

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just completed the forward to her first book and my kids will

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be reading this book.

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A lot of potential and new sales people will be reading

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this book.

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I'm very, very excited about what she's put together.

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Speaker 3: And I'm going to shout out to my mom too, because

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my mom watched the last episode with Christie and said it was

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one of her favorites.

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Speaker 5: She's the real deal.

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It's a real deal.

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Yeah, a lot of respect for her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it was some really good stuff in there and

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I've listened to it a couple of times and taken notes, because

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there were just so many good things that we went through.

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Well, a lot of birthday wishes coming through and people

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jumping in.

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But before we get into, mike, we have some great stuff to

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cover.

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Today we have a, and Brandon pulled some strings here, and we

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have a special cameo appearance from somebody here.

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So everybody hold on, and I'm hoping that this works.

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So give me one second.

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Speaker 6: Hey, carson, it's Leah Thompson here, aka Lorraine

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McFly from Back to the Future, and I hear that your podcast

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Mate was an extra on Back to the Future in the 50s and that's

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why he's so dreamy.

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But I'm telling you, carson, you are even more dreamy.

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So have a lovely, lovely birthday.

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Congratulations on having the number one rated podcast on

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social selling.

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That's no easy task.

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You guys must be really funny and awesome.

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So thank you so much for dressing as my son Many, many

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times for Halloween, and I really appreciate it, and lots

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of love.

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I can't wait to hear your show.

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Happy birthday, you dreamboat.

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Happy birthday, you dreamboat.

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Happy birthday, dear Carson.

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Happy birthday to you.

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Speaker 3: My teenage self is very grateful, my crush Lorraine

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.

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Wow, you guys have outdone yourselves.

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You've outdone yourselves.

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Thank you, yeah thanks to.

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Brandon, he made that happen.

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Speaker 2: Right then, thank you From lunch room to Lorraine.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty amazing .

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Should we just end off right here?

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Mike, I know you have some great stuff to talk about.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I can bring anything after that.

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I'm swooning.

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Speaker 3: I think Carson's pulses might be a little too

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high right now for him to focus.

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Speaker 5: So I don't know where to go with this.

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You know you could go in a glass of water, take a walk or

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something.

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Yeah, I think Carson's pulse might be a little too high for a

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walk or something It'll be okay , I made you the moment.

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Speaker 3: Pull me off the floor .

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Speaker 2: Now we're still here, Mike.

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Speaker 3: So I'm just going to leave and watch Mike.

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Speaker 4: So, hey, I have expected you to be dressed as

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Marty McFly today.

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It's your birthday, it's a day after Halloween.

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I mean, I was expecting doing some a DeLorean.

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Speaker 3: My kids made me dress as a super kitty this year, but

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I have dressed as Marty before, so Lorraine's comments hit the

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mark.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Well, let's get into it, mike, welcome.

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Thank you for putting up with us this far, so this is great.

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So, mike, it's better than a dad joke.

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That's right.

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It's better than a dad joke, you're absolutely right.

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So, mike, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background,

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and then we're going to talk about some, I think, pretty

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intriguing questions about selling and social selling and

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some of the great stuff that you've written about in your

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books.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't wait.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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Thanks for having me here.

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I'm here for Carson for his birthday.

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I am between running between snow and Minneapolis yesterday

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and I woke up to snow on Halloween in Minneapolis, and

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tomorrow I head out to the West Coast for a client gig, so I'm

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glad we were able to make this happen today.

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My deal is I love sales.

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I was a top sales hunter in several organizations and what

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I'm doing now was not on my vision board.

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I did not expect to be in this position or be invited on cool

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shows like this to talk about sales and sales leadership, but

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my passion is helping salespeople win more new sales,

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and I do that a couple of ways.

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Sometimes I work with sales teams and do training and

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coaching.

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My book in that arena is New Sales Simplified, and that book

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opened a lot of doors which led to Sales Management Simplified.

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And then my latest book, which we'll talk about, and I spend

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probably almost two-thirds of my time now working with sales

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leaders and sales management teams, helping them increase

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sales management effectiveness, because the sales leader is the

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key, the key to driving culture, the key to driving results, and

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most companies have completely lost sight of what the sales

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manager's job is and how they should be spending their time,

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and that's a whole conversation we may get into today, but I'm

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just thrilled to be here and talk about sales and sales

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management.

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Speaker 3: And I just want to say thank you to Mike because,

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to his point and he underplayed this as he always does this was

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literally the only day he could be in town in between travels

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and he chose to be here, so we really appreciate having you,

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mike.

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Speaker 5: Because you told me I would get a ride in your Aston

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Martin.

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That is why I'm here.

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I'm done.

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Okay.

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Speaker 2: We told him that Leah Thompson was coming, so he's.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to say can you be seen in Aston

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Martin?

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I mean, you're a more.

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Speaker 5: I can, especially yours.

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So that's all good, All right fair enough, all right.

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Speaker 2: So, mike, to kick things off because we were

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chatting.

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We've been chatting for the last couple of days, back and

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forth, and one of the things that was really intriguing, I

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thought, was you're saying there's a real massive shift

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occurring from sort of the A team sales hero, if you will, to

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more of a sales management, I guess culture or structure.

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And I would love to hear your take on that and what you've

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seen and why you see this transitioning is happening.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and in fact it's one of the motivators to

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write the book.

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The publisher actually came to me and said hey, we're doing a

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series of books.

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They have a classic book called the First Time Manager and they

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wanted to build a series around it and one would be for sales

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managers.

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And they asked me if I would write that.

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And one of the reasons I said yes is because I see what you're

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talking about all the time.

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There is nothing similar between being a top producing

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individual contributor and being a sales team leader.

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The only thing similar about the jobs are the word sales.

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But sales person and sales manager I mean completely

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different.

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The sales people who are high ego and selfish and win on their

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own do amazing work right.

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And then you get promoted into management and you realize, oh,

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I'm not responsible for one, now I'm responsible for many.

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I don't win on my own, I have to win through my people.

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But I can't even be selfish.

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I have to be selfless and learn how to deflect the glory and

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the credit and subdue my own ego .

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So it's such a massive shift to make that flip from individual

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contributor particularly if you're a star into management,

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and so a lot of the focus of the book in the beginning gets into

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what is that shift and how do you approach it successfully, so

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you don't struggle as badly as I did in my first sales

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management and sales executive job Because I was not prepared.

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Nobody told me.

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After having been a top producer and then a really

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successful run in coaching and consulting, I finally took a job

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as an executive and as a sales manager and I stunk my first

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year doing that for a whole lot of reasons, but one of them is

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because I didn't understand how to make that shift from winning

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on my own to winning through my people.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say thank you, Larry Levine, Mark,

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everybody the happy birthday wishes.

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Larry, Great to see you on Great past Carson, may I look at

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?

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Speaker 5: you.

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May I look?

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Can we just be honest?

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He might be the most loved person in the industry.

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When I did a podcast episode with him and I promoted the

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amount of love that was and I don't even think Carson I went

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back and listened to our episode .

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I mean it was good but it wasn't our best, like you know,

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and the fawning over him, people like he could do anything and

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people like Carson he's the best .

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Speaker 3: You're going to make me blush worse than I already

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did.

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Speaker 2: I want you to blush.

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That's good, he's a dream.

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Though he's a dream, I got to ask this yeah, dream.

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Speaker 3: I got to ask this, so in first time sales manager,

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let me just say Wait wait, wait, wait.

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Speaker 4: Did you notice how quickly Carson turned that

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around and then went right back to the book?

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I mean, come on, Carson.

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Speaker 5: He's a pro.

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I appreciate this.

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Speaker 3: So okay, so I don't care if you're brand new.

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I love that this is called first time manager sales.

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I don't think you're brand new or you've got a lot of years of

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experience and you're a grizzled old sales guy like me.

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Like, this is a blueprint for everything selling and what

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amazes me.

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So, mike, when I got first promoted years ago, I gifted

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myself sales management simplified.

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How do you sit down to write these Like, what are your?

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Because obviously things have changed a lot from a sales

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perspective?

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Yeah, how do you sit down and really, what was your big

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driving force behind first time sales manager and how do you

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start crafting the agendas and the messages for these?

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Speaker 5: Yeah Well, this one was easier in some ways and

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harder in other ways.

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It was easier because it's been eight years since I wrote and

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released sales management simplified and, while the basics

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and the fundamentals of leading a team have not changed in any

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way, shape or form, the truth is I had eight years more

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experience running around the world and dealing with sales

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leadership dysfunction and training managers and doing

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coaching and running people through cohorts where I got to

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live through their pain and their challenges and their

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successes.

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So the easy part was that I had fresh stories and perspective

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and perspective.

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The hard part was writing another book on sales management

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when you said everything you knew in the first book and I

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worked really hard.

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The first time I actually said this was in the first interview

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about this book.

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This is my best book and it's really hard to say that when you

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love your other books and they're what put you on the map.

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But this is my thinnest book because I'm more experienced and

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it's going to sound kind of weird, but I was able to trim

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the fat and get this down to like the the you know, brass

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tacks, base fundamentals.

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My promise is to new and experienced leaders if you do

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what's in here you're going to win Because this is I mean, it's

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the simplest prioritization of what our most important jobs are

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as a sales leader, and with some frameworks and techniques

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about how to do those important jobs and how to become a smart

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talent manager and how to avoid like doing everybody's job on

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your team and being the hero and burning out and killing your

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culture.

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So you know, it's hard to write a book when you're busy.

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In fact, people keep asking me, mike, do you have another one

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in you?

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And I was like I don't know, maybe later when I slow it down

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and I'm in pseudo retirement.

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It's really hard when you're working at the pace that you and

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I work Carson, to find the time to do quality writing.

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And I have friends in the industry, anthony Anarino, I

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mean he's on like his 13th blog post, right, like he's been

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writing a blog post every day for 12 years.

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It's some crazy-ass number.

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Like my respect for his discipline is through the roof.

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I don't have that kind of discipline, you know.

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I'd rather go play golf or put on a YouTube on cars or do

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something like I can't.

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I don't have that type of thing .

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So I don't know.

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I wrote it because the publisher asked me to.

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I wrote it because I have a heart for sales managers and I

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see how hard their job is, whether they're new, and they're

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like the deer and the headlights with everything

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coming at them.

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And a lot of times when I run an event, you know we have

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season.

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You said grizzled leaders that come to these events and I've

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had grown men like 55, 60 year old men cry and just say I can't

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do this anymore.

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280 emails a day.

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Can I say shit in your show here or no?

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Is that okay?

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Speaker 3: You did it.

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Speaker 5: Bullshit emails from CFOs with spreadsheets attached.

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You know on one day they're yelling at you fill out the CRM,

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get it up there.

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The next day they're sending you a spreadsheet asking for a

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forecast.

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Dragon managers to virtual meeting after virtual meeting,

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c-level executives who have completely lost sight of how a

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sales manager should spend his or her time to move the needle

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on culture and results.

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So my heart has really shifted where I'm spending more time

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with the sales leader because when you get the management

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piece right, like when you get the culture and the leadership

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and the coaching and the accountability right, everything

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changes and you benefit from what I call the multiplier

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effect right, because one great sales leader can make a huge

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dent in the business because they're impacting all of the

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people on their team and if they're building the right kind

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of culture and they're maximizing the production of

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their A-players and they're quickly addressing

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underperformance and they're leading team meetings and

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energizing equip and they actually make developmental

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coaching not just reactive coaching when there's a crisis

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or a giant opportunity, but proactive, intentional,

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developmental coaching a priority, which is the first

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thing every manager cancels when the crap hits the fan, like

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when I see that happen.

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I see business change and I see sales managers like have joy in

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the satisfaction from running the business and developing

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their people.

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So I don't know that's a long answer, but you got me kind of

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wound up there.

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Speaker 3: No, I love it and I want to thank everybody again

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for all the birthday wishes.

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This is fun, Like I'm just sitting here like dressed down

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and watching people give me shoutouts while talking to Mike

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Weinberg.

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Speaker 5: I agree with Mitch.

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Mitch almost asked you to marry him in this episode.

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Speaker 3: I love you man.

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Shake and bake, brother, shake and bake.

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So, mike, I got to ask this.

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It's kind of a chicken and egg scenario, because I'm a big

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believer that the leadership sets the tone for the culture

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right, and sometimes it's lack thereof.

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That is, in essence, what forces someone who may be newly

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minted as a manager to feel like they have to be the hero,

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because it's the only rhythm and only way they know.

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And I got the gist from you and I appreciate kind of your being

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forthcoming in this.

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I had the same experience.

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I was promoted very early in my career when I was in my 20s and

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you know, multiple times, and then later I came back to being

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an IC and then I got back into leadership.

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But I really realized in my 20s like I was completely driving

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as the hero.

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I had to, and I think I learned the hard way that that was not

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the way.

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So as I reinvented myself as a manager later in my life, I was

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much better at it.

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But I think the leadership sets the tone.

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You've got to have good sales leadership that empowers and

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enables your people to lead correctly and to train you

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properly.

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How could we as leaders today, how can we create and nurture

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that type of a culture that enables our leaders to not have

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to feel like they've got to be the hero.

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Speaker 5: It's such a deep question and I'm going to take a

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different tactic as I approach the answer than I've done before

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, because you said a few things that sparks some thinking for me

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.

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I think the first part of my answer has to do with the leader

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.

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Particularly the newer leader has to have a very high degree

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of self-awareness, because some of the thing that causes you to

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play hero is what made you great as an individual contributor

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Ego drive, perfectionism.

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Those three just popped up in my head Ego, drive and

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perfectionism.

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We love that in an individual contributor and if your ego is a

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little bit too big when you're in sales, it actually, I think,

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works to your benefit.

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You know you have a little bit like Teflon.

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You enjoy the applause and the limelight and you know you let

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the criticism kind of bounce off you.

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But when you bring a high ego into a leadership role, that

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gets old really fast.

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Like nobody wants to work for the guy or the gal that's

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stealing the credit and putting themselves on the stage and

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bragging about what my team has done Right, and there are

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certain themselves at the last minute in every deal so they can

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say they saved it.

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One of the great executives I worked with.

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He said you know, what's really important is when the senior

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leader hears from a sales manager.

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Hey, boss, you know.

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I just want to let you know I saved the deal.

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I jumped in the last minute, I turned the whole presentation

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around, I handled the negotiation.

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I got that deal for us.

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Instead of applauding the manager, which is what most

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executives do, the right thing to do is, hey, that's great, I'm

00:16:43
thankful we saved the deal.

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Can I ask you why were we in that situation and what kind of

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coaching were you doing of your team member beforehand and were

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you guiding them or like, were you developing?

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Do you not have sufficient talent on your team?

00:16:55
Well, you feel like you've got to step in.

00:16:57
So all of that ego, drive, perfectionism, pressure to

00:17:03
produce numbers those things conspire where people who are

00:17:07
really successful on their own they're now leading a team and

00:17:10
the pressure and the legacy way of operating it gets them in

00:17:14
this mindset well, if it's going to get done, I got to do it and

00:17:18
I'll grant this Carson.

00:17:19
For the short term, a leader can play the team hero and do

00:17:24
everybody's job, and the way I like to contrast it is it's

00:17:26
doing versus either leading, coaching or holding accountable.

00:17:30
And, in the short term, the leader.

00:17:32
If you've got seven or eight people in your team, you can try

00:17:34
to solve for all of them and you can get into a lot of big

00:17:37
meetings and you can dictate when you're doing presentation

00:17:40
prep instead of coaching and asking leading questions, but at

00:17:43
some point that is not a sustainable or scalable model.

00:17:46
You can't work that many hours.

00:17:48
You can't do seven people's jobs Plus.

00:17:49
You're running off your top talent.

00:17:51
Nobody wants to work for the control freak.

00:17:53
You know Liz Wiseman calls these people the diminisher in

00:17:56
her book multipliers, like it's the opposite of the kind of

00:17:59
leader you want to work with.

00:18:00
So the danger is going back to the question.

00:18:04
You don't really know that you do these things until you get in

00:18:07
the role and you're a leader and no one warns you that this

00:18:10
is coming, because the things we used to applaud you for when

00:18:14
you were on stage at the president's club getting the

00:18:16
trophy are now the things that actually hurt you when you're

00:18:20
supposed to be leading and developing other people, and

00:18:23
that is massive.

00:18:26
Speaker 2: You know it's interesting listening to this,

00:18:27
mike.

00:18:27
One's a comment and then I have a question is listening to?

00:18:32
What you're talking about is not just a situation or an issue

00:18:35
in sales management, but just in startup business or

00:18:38
entrepreneurs in general?

00:18:39
Right, you have somebody who has been a hero or a superstar

00:18:43
in a certain area now tries to run a business, have multiple

00:18:46
people working under him same sort of challenges, just

00:18:49
different situations and different things that are there.

00:18:52
But the question I have is I think that you know and I've

00:18:57
worked in a lot of sales organizations, coached,

00:18:59
consulted with a lot of organizations the sales manager

00:19:02
is kind of a forgotten role.

00:19:03
It's not a role that's given, at least in my history, a lot of

00:19:07
attention or maybe even importance.

00:19:10
Are you seeing that changing?

00:19:11
I mean, obviously, as people read and consume more of your

00:19:14
content, but are you seeing that shift occurring in companies,

00:19:17
realizing that this is more important?

00:19:21
Speaker 5: Not enough.

00:19:21
Not enough, I mean Carson, I'm sure has a take here.

00:19:24
No, in fact, I said this to a client yesterday.

00:19:26
I was in a boardroom for a couple of days planning the

00:19:29
rollout of some content.

00:19:29
They were using my video series and we were planning like a

00:19:32
year of training for this big organization and I made the

00:19:35
comment out loud.

00:19:35
I said if the world had better sales managers because we were

00:19:39
developing them and the C-suite had a better understanding of

00:19:41
how important the sales manager was, I would have a lot less

00:19:44
training business and I would be okay with that.

00:19:47
So many of the sales things that ails sales today, things that

00:19:50
are broken, are due to sales management and effectiveness.

00:19:53
Look at all the amateur salespeople doing show up and

00:19:56
throw up, spray and pray, demo without discovery, coming across

00:20:00
like a vendor, not a value creator, not consultative.

00:20:02
Yes, man, yes, women, do whatever the customer says.

00:20:05
I call all those things selling like amateurs and I'm telling

00:20:10
you, 80% of the reason that happens is because managers

00:20:13
don't work alongside their people anymore.

00:20:14
And so, to answer your question , no, I don't see it shifting, I

00:20:18
don't see the wake up.

00:20:18
I feel like there's a few of us , you know, banging this drum

00:20:23
about the importance of the sales manager.

00:20:25
But and it's rare, I mean it's rare where I get a call from a

00:20:27
big name company that we all know the name of and they're

00:20:30
like hey, could you come in and do a little sales management

00:20:32
assessment?

00:20:32
And would you, could we gather our leaders in a few regions of

00:20:35
the globe and can we do the best practices on culture and

00:20:38
accountability and coaching?

00:20:39
Because in my opinion that's what moves the needle.

00:20:41
I mean I get 100 calls for sales training.

00:20:44
The one call about can you come do a little assessment of sales

00:20:48
management and help my people be better coaches and better

00:20:51
leaders and whole people accountable, and I mean the

00:20:54
multiplier effect.

00:20:55
I said that before, if you get that right.

00:20:56
So no, I don't see it changing and it it's good news for my

00:21:01
business and my book sales.

00:21:02
It's bad news for sales.

00:21:03
I rather it would be the other way around.

00:21:05
I find some other way to make money in sales.

00:21:08
But no, I'm, it's the disrespect , it's the low view.

00:21:11
You know, clean up an aisle, three, send the sales manager.

00:21:14
You know, I mean that's, that's kind of them.

00:21:16
That's the view of it in a lot of places and I am a friend in

00:21:19
South Africa.

00:21:19
I got a couple friends in South Africa, some of the smartest

00:21:22
sales management gurus Alan Verschdeck and Tony Cross and we

00:21:26
were doing an event in London last year and Tony Tony put Alan

00:21:30
up there who's really funny and he said something to the group.

00:21:33
He said we were better sales managers collectively in the

00:21:36
1980s, before email, before cell phones, where we were called in

00:21:41
field sales managers and all we did was rotate through working

00:21:46
with our people, getting in their cars, prepping with them

00:21:49
having dinner, having a beer, having a coffee, challenging

00:21:52
them about their territory, asking about their account list,

00:21:54
prepping for big meetings, debriefing after the meeting

00:21:57
like challenging them.

00:21:58
I mean, think about that.

00:22:00
I mean and this is this is the part blows my mind in the old

00:22:03
days and I mean when I was younger, before this was great

00:22:07
15 years ago I would hear managers brag about how they

00:22:12
developed their people.

00:22:13
I inherited this girl.

00:22:14
She was totally messed up.

00:22:16
Last, no one taught her anything.

00:22:17
She was on the on a plan.

00:22:19
I got her on my team, I doubled down, I spent more time where

00:22:23
we traveled, we wrote plans, I held her accountable, I coached

00:22:26
her.

00:22:26
Today she's going to president's club or I got this

00:22:29
young rookie kid at a school.

00:22:31
He didn't know anything, he was all green.

00:22:32
I spent some time with him and today, man, he's on the track to

00:22:35
be the star.

00:22:36
Like that was a common sales management brag 15 years ago.

00:22:40
Do you know?

00:22:41
I don't ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever hear a manager brag

00:22:45
by.

00:22:46
They turned someone around.

00:22:46
Today they're not even on their radar because they're buried in

00:22:49
all that corporate crap, sitting in virtual meetings,

00:22:52
getting yelled at about spreadsheets and all this money

00:22:56
going to now I'm going to get.

00:22:57
Now I'm getting mad.

00:22:57
Like all this money going to sales enablement and tools and

00:23:00
garbage and you know all the hacks online and and like what

00:23:05
about getting in the car with someone or getting in the

00:23:07
bullpen?

00:23:07
When we used to go to work before, we decided that people

00:23:10
don't need to work together.

00:23:10
We should all just live virtually, like all that stuff

00:23:13
was valuable, and today we it's not happening, and no one like

00:23:18
I'm trying to preach, and so are a few others, but where's the

00:23:21
wake up call that the manager's job is to develop his or her

00:23:24
people?

00:23:26
Speaker 3: That's a great call out.

00:23:27
I mean, one of my favorite things ever of sales leadership

00:23:30
was the person that needed me to jump into just about every

00:23:33
customer meeting that they had when we first started working

00:23:35
together, and then the eventual moment when they didn't need me

00:23:38
at all anymore Brandon what is your?

00:23:40
Take.

00:23:41
Speaker 4: You know, my brain's going through history,

00:23:45
everything Mike's saying.

00:23:46
I'm thinking of this experience , that experience, this

00:23:48
experience I mean I've got.

00:23:50
I didn't know how to ask the question because I feel like

00:23:53
it's not an answerable question, but I keep coming back to you

00:23:57
know, we, we, we had a season where we really looked a lot at

00:24:01
personality profiles, like Tom and I were talking about this

00:24:04
the other day.

00:24:05
I used a tool called the Simmons Survey, that in hiring

00:24:09
people, because it showed what their tendencies were, what did

00:24:13
they tend towards and what did they tend to move away to.

00:24:16
And it feels like I mean I think everybody will agree with

00:24:20
this you take, you take the best salesperson and then you move

00:24:24
them into sales management without any thought of how is

00:24:27
this person going to be as a leader.

00:24:29
And so I don't know if there's a question or a statement here.

00:24:32
I don't know how to break that cycle, like I learned from when

00:24:38
I had a really bad sales leader in my first sales job.

00:24:43
A friend of mine's dad had said something to me.

00:24:46
He's like you know, as a sales leader, we're supposed to take

00:24:50
responsibility for all the mistakes and celebrate the team

00:24:54
for all the victories, and your boss is the exact opposite and

00:24:59
he's like I would move on.

00:25:01
You know you're young, you're impressionable, you're trying to

00:25:03
I'd move on and I did, and I and I chose that.

00:25:05
But I've always had that in my mind when I've been in

00:25:08
leadership roles is I need to build them up, you know, get rid

00:25:13
of the ego and and let them enjoy all the victories and know

00:25:17
that my paycheck was going to, you know, be good enough.

00:25:20
For me, it was more their victories, my paycheck increase,

00:25:24
and like, what do we do?

00:25:26
I mean, I know that's what your book's about, but how do we

00:25:29
break this, because there's so many layers of crap from the

00:25:33
spreadsheets, from the CFO and everything else.

00:25:35
Like, how do we break this?

00:25:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I mean you said so much and almost

00:25:39
didn't need a question at the end.

00:25:40
Sorry, it was powerful in the way you framed it, cause it's

00:25:43
the truth and it's everything from taking our best salesperson

00:25:46
and making them a manager, without really considering

00:25:49
whether they have the makeup to succeed and whether they'll

00:25:52
enjoy the job.

00:25:52
There's a, there's a young guy in sales super star named

00:25:56
Dominic Testo that, of course, is probably met him because

00:25:58
we're friends and we always he might be on.

00:26:00
Speaker 3: He might be on the show he's probably here.

00:26:01
Speaker 5: You know he, the guy's a rock star individual

00:26:03
contributor and he's been asked to go into management.

00:26:05
He's debated it for years and he read the book, even by

00:26:08
chapter two.

00:26:09
He caught me up and he's like are you okay, when I write my

00:26:11
review of this book, if I say, mike, thank you, you've affirmed

00:26:15
my decision to stay as an individual contributor.

00:26:17
I love the fund, the freedom and the financial rewards and I

00:26:19
don't want what you're describing and I'm like you're

00:26:22
brilliant, know thyself right.

00:26:23
Yeah, like so.

00:26:25
So part of where you're going, brandon, is like we need to do a

00:26:27
better job painting a picture of what the real job is.

00:26:29
And then I'm clueless and I hate to say it this way.

00:26:32
I don't know the answer of how we're going to manage up better.

00:26:36
To help the people in the corner office and in the ivory

00:26:39
tower understand how we should be spending.

00:26:41
We meaning sales leaders, frontline leaders spend in our

00:26:44
time, because that's where the battle, and I spent a lot of

00:26:46
time helping frontline managers manage up and get their bosses

00:26:50
committed to their priorities and their plans.

00:26:52
One of my favorite podcast guests, one of the best clients

00:26:54
I've ever had, got named Dennis Sorensen and he says you really

00:26:58
got to manage up by getting your boss to sign off on what your

00:27:02
priorities are.

00:27:03
So the following week, when three other people in the

00:27:06
company send you 94 emails and give you all this work to do,

00:27:09
that's going to take, you know, five weeks to accomplish.

00:27:11
You got to bring that to your boss and go question you and I

00:27:15
agreed these four things are what's going to move the needle,

00:27:17
and I just got assigned five weeks of work from other people

00:27:21
in the company that want me to work on this.

00:27:22
Would you like to help me prioritize this, because I can't

00:27:25
do it all and we're not having that conversation with enough

00:27:29
spine at this point, if that makes sense.

00:27:34
Speaker 3: So, mike, brings out everybody.

00:27:35
There's Dominic.

00:27:36
I knew he would be on today.

00:27:37
Mike brings out everybody.

00:27:38
Great comments from the chat too, from Dave.

00:27:41
I worked side by side with salespeople.

00:27:45
That's how I was mentored.

00:27:46
That's what it all comes down to is, I think a lot of it it

00:27:49
has to come from the culture.

00:27:50
It has to be get you know one to the next, and if I think all

00:27:54
of us at some point I mean we've had those bad Apple managers

00:27:57
We've also hopefully had some greats and you take a little bit

00:28:00
from both right, you know what not to do and what to do, and I

00:28:04
think it all becomes part of our arsenal over time.

00:28:06
Speaker 2: There was another great question, tom, I think

00:28:07
yeah, I wanted to hit a couple of these because there's some

00:28:09
good ones here.

00:28:10
We'll hit James first.

00:28:11
Is you know James is asking how do you navigate the leadership

00:28:15
view about how much reps make?

00:28:17
Do you think that's the cause of a barrier, I guess, to

00:28:21
investing more in dollars into reps, because, hey, they're

00:28:24
going to make too much money?

00:28:25
I think, james, that's the question you're you're asking

00:28:27
there.

00:28:30
Speaker 5: Who wants that one?

00:28:31
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be the case.

00:28:32
Well, that's all of these are my questions.

00:28:34
But that shouldn't be the case.

00:28:35
You know, as a leader, as a good leader, you should want

00:28:38
your team to get paid as much as their worth.

00:28:41
And I think, frankly, that goes back to, mike, what you were

00:28:43
just saying about Dominic's decision.

00:28:44
You know, I think when you make that move into leadership, you

00:28:47
know that you will take a pay cut ultimately.

00:28:49
You're doing it because you want to multiply and you want to

00:28:52
enable people to be their best selves and you want to help them

00:28:54
find success, ideally success that you had.

00:28:57
I mean, frankly, the fact that I was an IC as long as I was.

00:29:00
That's one of my favorite jobs I've ever done.

00:29:03
Yes, but it gave me the credibility to be in the role

00:29:06
that I'm in today.

00:29:07
I have credibility walking into the room, but it's not my job

00:29:10
to tell people how to do their job.

00:29:11
It's my job to uncover their unique superpowers and make them

00:29:14
the best that they can be by figuring out whatever gaps they

00:29:16
have, where they want to go if they want to get promoted, et

00:29:19
cetera, so on and so forth.

00:29:20
But I expect my team to make a lot more money than me.

00:29:23
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I get very concerned, karsten, when I hear

00:29:25
the opposite, when I'm in the corner office and I hear

00:29:30
begrudging the checks that we're issuing to the sales team.

00:29:33
It's only one of two causes Either we have an accountant or

00:29:37
an engineer or an arrogant, brilliant person who founded a

00:29:40
company who doesn't value sales as a function and they think my

00:29:44
thing is so brilliant any idiot could go sell it, which always

00:29:47
scares me when I get that attitude.

00:29:50
But the other thing is it's poorly constructed compensation

00:29:53
plans.

00:29:53
The plan should not only drive the desired behaviors and

00:29:57
results, but we should love love writing the biggest fat ass

00:30:02
checks possible to salespeople because they earned the money.

00:30:06
It wasn't a check for babysitting, it wasn't just for

00:30:09
renewing, it was someone who worked, they penetrated, they

00:30:12
upsold, they cross-sold, they found new logos, they broke

00:30:15
their way in, they created business that's my favorite word

00:30:17
in sales proactive and create.

00:30:20
If the comp plan is structured that we highly compensate people

00:30:23
who earn the business by creating and closing new sales.

00:30:28
That's why I call it new sales, simplified.

00:30:30
What's possibly could be wrong with that right?

00:30:34
Particularly in some of these accounts where you're dealing

00:30:36
with not just ARR but lifetime value of a customer.

00:30:40
You look at that's worth to the organization.

00:30:42
Is it not worth paying very handsomely to the hunter who's

00:30:46
going to go bring that business in to reward them so they have a

00:30:50
significant carrot to keep them hungry and drive the behavior?

00:30:54
Smart comp plans.

00:30:55
I'll just go for 30 more seconds on this.

00:30:57
I often have conversations with senior leaders that sometimes I

00:31:01
think the compensation, the variable piece, should decrease

00:31:05
over time, because why would you keep paying someone crazy money

00:31:08
to renew and babysit and serve their friends that we sold a

00:31:11
decade ago at the same money as to go that heavy lifting of

00:31:15
really penetrating or really opening a new account?

00:31:18
I think we need to be smart with compensation so it not only

00:31:22
drives the behavior but everybody wins the company and

00:31:25
the salesperson.

00:31:27
Speaker 3: So another amazing thing about this episode is the

00:31:29
all-star cast of people in the comments Brent Tillman hi, brent

00:31:33
.

00:31:33
Sales leader doesn't give their reps fish, they teach them to

00:31:37
reel in whales Powerful.

00:31:41
Speaker 5: But you know, to Brent's comment and hello Brent,

00:31:43
I've recommended many people to you lately who have asked about

00:31:46
LinkedIn and how to be better in terms of using LinkedIn as a

00:31:49
tool for selling, and the comment about catching fish

00:31:55
versus teaching someone to become a proficient fisherman.

00:31:58
It's really a challenge because sales managers are so

00:32:01
challenged for their time right now and it's just easier and

00:32:05
it's more expedient.

00:32:06
Oftentimes it's to just go do the deal, get it done, close it,

00:32:10
as opposed to investing in the person to make them better.

00:32:13
And I'll just tell one quick story.

00:32:14
That's in the book.

00:32:15
It's in the chapter on not being the team hero.

00:32:18
I'm leading this giant workshop for a big company, not about 130

00:32:22
young sales leaders in the room .

00:32:24
This is kind of a company where they hire you out of college

00:32:26
and if you're good, three or four years later you're a

00:32:28
frontline manager.

00:32:29
So I had a bunch of people in their late 20s in this room and

00:32:33
this girl told the story how she , in her first year, was so

00:32:36
overzealous as a sales leader.

00:32:37
She sold for all her people and two of them made it to the

00:32:40
president's club because she was committed to having her team be

00:32:43
successful.

00:32:43
And she's telling the story and we're like why are you telling

00:32:46
this?

00:32:46
What's the big deal?

00:32:47
And she paused and she goes and this last year I had to fire

00:32:50
both of those people because I realized I was doing their job

00:32:54
for them.

00:32:54
They didn't make president's club.

00:32:55
I made president's club for them and when I took my hand off

00:33:00
the wheel and I started trying to coach and develop and let

00:33:02
them do their own thing, they weren't even capable.

00:33:04
They were the wrong people.

00:33:05
And it's just that lesson like because no one decided to teach

00:33:07
them how to fish and then so she was catching the fish.

00:33:10
She didn't even know they were in the wrong role.

00:33:12
So a lot of danger when you do your salespeople's job.

00:33:16
Speaker 3: So if we went back in time and we told Mike Weinberg

00:33:19
a few years back that he'd eventually be on a show that had

00:33:21
social selling and the title, you might think he'd go in a

00:33:24
completely tangential area.

00:33:27
Mike had some big statements about social selling a few years

00:33:30
back, but they're very valid because it was.

00:33:32
There was a trend that was out and there was an article that

00:33:35
Mike wrote and I know he got a lot of traction on that article

00:33:38
and rightfully so, because it called out all of the just bad

00:33:40
behavior, and I know this is something that Brandon talks

00:33:43
about a lot.

00:33:43
I'd love to hear from Mike and Brandon on this topic.

00:33:46
But you know, mike, when social selling became this big thing a

00:33:51
few years back and it was this whole get rid of all the you

00:33:54
know relationship building, get rid of the cold calling you know

00:33:57
you do this social selling mechanism, you make these posts

00:34:00
and you're going to be rich.

00:34:00
How is social selling, or at least maybe what social selling

00:34:05
is known for and like its reputation in the mainstream

00:34:08
sales area, how is it modified over the years and what are your

00:34:11
thoughts on it today?

00:34:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, first of all, I love how you frame the question

00:34:14
and you're one of the reasons that it's modified.

00:34:16
Let's be honest, it's some of it is the role you're playing in

00:34:19
the community and you're continually beating the drum for

00:34:22
the how it's could be done properly.

00:34:24
And you, you, actually.

00:34:26
I was thinking of this answer all day because I have friends

00:34:28
that are already like Mike.

00:34:29
You're going to talk about social selling, like the crap in

00:34:32
my own inbox right now is like you.

00:34:34
They invited you to talk about social selling.

00:34:35
Yeah, especially after what I wrote in sales truth.

00:34:40
You started the answer by saying this because, initially, what

00:34:44
social selling was was a replacement.

00:34:46
You're all idiots, you're dinosaurs, you're Luddites.

00:34:50
You're going to bother people, you're going to pick up the

00:34:53
phone, initiate contact, don't you know?

00:34:55
Today you can take selfie videos and you could blog and

00:34:58
you could comment and get in people's inbox and you could do

00:35:01
all this other stuff to social engineer and when they're ready,

00:35:03
when they're 57% through their buying process, they'll come

00:35:07
running to you with money and hands.

00:35:08
And, what's interesting, those people were were preaching it's

00:35:12
a replacement.

00:35:12
And I said very early on and so do some of my friends who took

00:35:15
out this battle with me, it's not a replacement, it's a

00:35:19
supplement.

00:35:19
The old is good and the new is good and you should use.

00:35:23
You know if everyone's heard the channel right, like we just

00:35:25
had this conversation with someone the other day.

00:35:26
So the difference is the Charlotte tins that were the

00:35:30
founders of the movement by the way, none of them are still in

00:35:33
the sales industry and I won't say their names.

00:35:36
But the guy who called himself the pioneer of social selling

00:35:40
we've seen him on LinkedIn for four years begging for a job,

00:35:42
okay.

00:35:43
And the woman who named her firm hashtag social selling,

00:35:46
gone doing real estate somewhere else out of Silicon Valley, and

00:35:50
I could go through the list.

00:35:51
And there were some more modern names I could share people that

00:35:53
started.

00:35:54
There was a guy that you know was a chief sales officer of a

00:35:57
company that to claim they were the digital sales transformation

00:35:59
people and he was talking about Kylie Jenner is going to be a

00:36:02
billionaire on her social media efforts.

00:36:04
You see, the cold calling isn't as effective as social media

00:36:06
and I'm like Kylie Jenner posting half naked selfies of

00:36:10
herself selling makeup is my example as a corporate

00:36:13
salesperson in a business Like you're really making that

00:36:15
argument.

00:36:16
That's social selling, like.

00:36:17
Are you stupid Like.

00:36:18
So all those people are out and the people that are left are

00:36:24
the Larry Levine's talking about .

00:36:25
Be authentic, build a brand, carson, what you're doing, the

00:36:29
store.

00:36:29
You told on my podcast about the number of contacts you had in

00:36:33
that giant like lifetime deal that you got with your massive

00:36:35
account and how long and how long it took and the depth that

00:36:39
you built from using LinkedIn and social engineering.

00:36:41
So I think that's a long answer because I felt like I had to

00:36:44
give the context because of where I was on this.

00:36:46
But it's evolved to the place where no one's talking about as

00:36:50
a replacement and was interesting because of the

00:36:53
damage that was done to pipelines and results.

00:36:55
Now everybody says we should prospect, we should initiate

00:36:58
contact.

00:36:59
They're not.

00:36:59
They're not misquoting the challenge or sale research

00:37:01
anymore and we have these great new tools and videos.

00:37:05
Incredible, and I have I mean I would be a hypocrite Most of my

00:37:08
relationships come from social.

00:37:09
That's why I met you Right and a lot of these relationships

00:37:13
have turned into real life friendships or clients.

00:37:15
So it's the blending of all ways and if you can learn more

00:37:20
and become warmer and be a better investigator and have a

00:37:25
relationship, I mean I have people that I barely know, but

00:37:28
because we commented on each other's Instagram posts.

00:37:31
I'm a guy who's in my industry.

00:37:32
I've seen him one time in person and I would tell you

00:37:35
we're good friends.

00:37:36
And I mean the day he dropped his daughter off for college and

00:37:40
he posted something and I sent him a little private message.

00:37:42
I'm like, dude, I've been there and every tier you shed today

00:37:45
is valuable.

00:37:46
Like I get it, like all of that was social, so I'll yield.

00:37:51
But I think it's evolved hugely .

00:37:53
Where it's part of the mainstream, one of many tools,

00:37:58
you better use it.

00:37:59
You better be smart.

00:38:00
Speaker 3: Well, the comments are any indicator.

00:38:02
Everybody agrees with you, brandon.

00:38:04
I want to hear your thoughts.

00:38:07
Speaker 4: I don't know.

00:38:07
I like Mike soapbox.

00:38:09
I'd like to just like scoot him over a little and jump on it.

00:38:12
I mean I feel like I should have worn my social selling suck

00:38:15
shirt today.

00:38:15
You know it's.

00:38:17
Yeah, it's in.

00:38:18
Mike used a really important word.

00:38:20
It was the charlatans in the early stages of it.

00:38:23
And I think, looking at Social as a medium or as a channel to

00:38:30
use the tried and true existing sales principles of offering

00:38:36
value and building relationships and doing discovery and

00:38:40
learning and research, it's fine , but it was the way people were

00:38:45
using it.

00:38:45
It was.

00:38:46
It was kind of like I said this one time on on stage is like

00:38:49
remember, with fax machines and there were the charlatans end

00:38:53
that all of a sudden it was spamming.

00:38:54
Fax out to people, right Facts, was a great tool at the time,

00:38:59
but it was a way people used it and I think it's the same way

00:39:02
and it's you know, tom and I keep working on and building and

00:39:05
and I don't know if we feel like it's baked or part baked or

00:39:09
will never be fully Baked.

00:39:11
But we look at this, this revenue operating system, with a

00:39:15
social Element to it and, and even though I like social first

00:39:22
and a lot of areas.

00:39:23
It doesn't mean social only, and I think we're still dealing

00:39:27
with that stigma People that said, oh well, we tried social

00:39:31
and it didn't work.

00:39:32
No, you didn't try social, you tried charlatan, hack, crap,

00:39:36
pitch-slappy shit.

00:39:38
That didn't work and you threw it into a big category of social

00:39:43
selling doesn't work and you never looked at it again because

00:39:47
you got burned one time.

00:39:48
Well, it's time to back up.

00:39:50
We got to pick up on our big boy and big girl underwear and

00:39:53
say what is valuable here?

00:39:56
And let's take the time to weed out the garbage, figure out

00:40:00
where the good soil is and leverage it.

00:40:03
So that means personal brands are important, because personal

00:40:07
brand means reputation.

00:40:09
Our Communications have always been important.

00:40:12
How much is our team getting in front of people has always been

00:40:16
important.

00:40:16
We we categorize is how many calls did you make in a day?

00:40:19
What about how many conversations Did you create

00:40:22
today?

00:40:22
So I'll jump off my soapbox because I I that's that's

00:40:27
obviously the one that starts pissing me off, because people

00:40:31
threw things into a category that was crap, hack Activities,

00:40:35
put a label on it and then everything that was near that

00:40:38
label ended up, they believe, smelled like garbage.

00:40:41
Speaker 2: What was that, brandon?

00:40:42
I want to make sure we got that Charlotte Crap pack bullshit.

00:40:47
Was that the?

00:40:47
Was that what you?

00:40:48
Speaker 4: said it's in crap, hat bullshit.

00:40:50
I like it, I.

00:40:50
There's a new shirt.

00:40:51
Yeah, there's a new guys fired up today.

00:40:54
Speaker 3: This is amazing.

00:40:55
I'm loving the comments, tara, but how do you really feel to

00:40:59
Brandon?

00:40:59
This is, this is fantastic.

00:41:02
No, you know.

00:41:03
What's amazing, though Like because I always I always try to

00:41:06
really hold myself up is what I like to call a noble night of

00:41:09
the selling game.

00:41:10
I think it's a noble responsibility to get to de-risk

00:41:14
decisions and solve problems for Clients and customers, and

00:41:17
so I think that's the key element is that's what's helped.

00:41:20
Some of the you know from the ashes of the Charlotte's and

00:41:23
Crab hack has helped people to come up, do it responsibly and

00:41:27
garner a good reputation.

00:41:28
I mean, I wouldn't be where I am today without social selling,

00:41:32
but it was doing it right.

00:41:33
And don't get me wrong, I've made my fair share of mistakes.

00:41:36
I've sent stuff out, it was probably received as spammy, and

00:41:39
I've altered my approach as a result.

00:41:41
I've been doing it for a decade .

00:41:42
So, yeah, I think that's the key is, be willing to

00:41:46
Acknowledge that it it's got to be done with the customer and

00:41:49
helping the customer and serving the customer at the heart.

00:41:52
Speaker 4: But Carson, it's also just like we've.

00:41:54
We've made bad cold calls before.

00:41:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and then we've had to.

00:41:59
Speaker 4: We have yes that's true, but but I've made Bad cold

00:42:04
calls before and you don't throw the phone out because you

00:42:07
said something stupid on a cold call, right, right, and that's

00:42:10
that's what I think happened with a lot of this is the

00:42:13
charlatans.

00:42:14
The automation, the pitch, slap emails Sold people a pipe dream

00:42:18
that they were gonna press a button, it was gonna automate

00:42:21
for 24 hours a day and they were just gonna get PO's in their

00:42:24
inbox.

00:42:25
And it didn't work.

00:42:26
Speaker 5: Well, it didn't work because it was a stupid tactic,

00:42:29
not because it was a stupid medium, the maturity at the

00:42:32
wisdom of what you Just shared in the last minute of you don't

00:42:34
throw the phone out and the way you came back with that.

00:42:36
And that's exactly what happened.

00:42:37
The reason I picked aside and jumped in this battle is because

00:42:41
I wanted to shoot the charlatans, to defend the sales

00:42:44
people from the Failure that they were gonna face.

00:42:45
If they really thought that Gary V, as brilliant as he is,

00:42:50
drop an F bombs with his ski cap on the summer, take a selfie

00:42:53
videos was gonna get you appointments with C-suite people

00:42:56
Selling software like they would, you know it's not the

00:43:00
same.

00:43:00
It didn't translate the Kylie Jenner thing.

00:43:02
So I'm with you and here's where it really comes down to.

00:43:05
I guess and I've only been in the sales improvement world like

00:43:08
15 years, but I've seen there's been enough cycles there's

00:43:12
always the bandwagon jumpers in our industry that need to make a

00:43:16
living so they jump on what's hot today.

00:43:18
So there was the social selling bad wagon.

00:43:21
There was the account based selling bandwagon.

00:43:23
You went through it, right and it's, and I realized, oh, this

00:43:26
always is gonna happen.

00:43:26
The people that don't necessarily have a following

00:43:29
need to make a living, so they put their finger and they see

00:43:33
which way the wind's blowing and they oh, I'm the expert now in

00:43:35
this and I think that's what happened for a while and social

00:43:38
was really big.

00:43:38
It's kind of like AI today, except we all we know that AI is

00:43:42
legit and it is going to change the world and we're all

00:43:45
struggling with what that means.

00:43:46
But it's interesting.

00:43:48
I think the way people are talking about AI in our industry

00:43:51
is much more mature and I'm hearing like wise voices say you

00:43:57
better wake up, not like the old days.

00:43:59
Well, the sky is falling.

00:44:00
We're all gonna get replaced because they're gonna put in

00:44:02
kiosks everywhere.

00:44:03
No, I don't think that's gonna happen, but it's.

00:44:05
How are you using these tools to come up with better probing

00:44:07
questions, to role play, to do research, to maybe just crafting

00:44:10
like that?

00:44:11
But it's interesting I'm seeing people behave a little smarter

00:44:14
where it's not not everyone's out there with the shingle.

00:44:16
I'm now the AI sales expert, which is what we did see a

00:44:20
decade ago with social selling.

00:44:21
Speaker 2: So so, mike, yeah, kind of taking this full circle.

00:44:26
Going back to sales leadership and sales management, do you see

00:44:30
that's a key responsibility to help the team understand how to

00:44:34
use social, how to understand how to use AI and not, I guess,

00:44:39
abuse it from that perspective, and at the same time not

00:44:42
discarded as going, oh, it just doesn't work.

00:44:43
I mean, where does that balance fit in?

00:44:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, I think balance is the right word

00:44:47
and I will tell you that because I'm not the tools guy and I

00:44:51
stick to a very simple framework and fundamentals.

00:44:54
I don't go too far personally down that path with my clients.

00:44:56
I rather point them to you and to Brynn and to Carson and to

00:45:00
others, because I don't I I don't like speaking out of my

00:45:04
lane but I would say yes, but where I would also point to sale

00:45:08
yours.

00:45:08
We have better nailed down these fundamentals and if we can

00:45:12
use social as a vehicle, as a tool for a lot of important

00:45:16
things and I'm gonna listen when I'm talking with sales team In

00:45:20
my new sales simplified mindset, there's five things we got to

00:45:23
be able to do.

00:45:24
You got to nail down our target list or, again, strategic, and

00:45:26
we know who we're going after.

00:45:27
We need compelling messaging that's about issues we address

00:45:30
and outcomes we achieve for clients, not self-focused crap

00:45:33
about speeds, feeds, buildings, histories, legacy.

00:45:36
So, target list, compelling messaging.

00:45:38
The ability to get a meeting from proactive pursuit, which

00:45:42
with through any ethical, effective means, necessary,

00:45:45
sometimes job one, you know, send smoke signals and a carrier

00:45:48
page put a message in a bottle.

00:45:49
Use Twitter, use LinkedIn in appropriate ways, not, you know,

00:45:54
connect and pitch and bots and all the crap that's in our

00:45:57
inboxes every day, but telephone .

00:46:00
So targeting, messaging, proactive pursuit to get the

00:46:04
meeting run, a great early-stage discovery, consultative sales

00:46:07
call, and they're, for goodness sakes, on the calendar and the

00:46:09
pipeline like an adult.

00:46:11
And if you can master those five things, really good things

00:46:15
happen every time.

00:46:16
And if you lay on top of that the sales management principles

00:46:18
of Do accountability and do coaching and get the right

00:46:22
people in the role and don't play hero and support and

00:46:25
discriminate and Overserve your best people to help them win and

00:46:30
quickly coach up or coach out under performers, that's the

00:46:32
whole book.

00:46:32
If you do those things at the same time we're targeting,

00:46:36
messaging, pursuing, running consultative meetings and own

00:46:38
the counter, the pipeline.

00:46:39
I don't know anything else about sales.

00:46:41
What else?

00:46:41
Am I gonna write another book?

00:46:42
I don't know.

00:46:42
I've told you, I've said the same thing.

00:46:44
I don't have any more material because every time I get

00:46:48
involved, I don't care if it's the most complex company or it's

00:46:50
a little 20 million dollar company trying to break through

00:46:52
the ceiling in complexity.

00:46:53
When they do those basics that I just listed on sales

00:46:56
management and sales, they win.

00:47:00
Speaker 3: Spend a second talking to us about the activity

00:47:02
.

00:47:02
You know kind of the activity review that managers can and

00:47:06
should be doing with their team members and I think that kind of

00:47:09
actually some of what you just described fits into that

00:47:11
umbrella, right.

00:47:12
You know, as we as sales leaders, just the value that

00:47:15
that it, that it serves spending that time Reviewing some of the

00:47:19
activities that our team members are doing.

00:47:20
You know what are the tools that they're using, how are they

00:47:23
using them?

00:47:23
Right, because you know one tool may work really great for

00:47:26
somebody in my line of work but may not for some others.

00:47:29
So I think you all.

00:47:30
For the personalized activity review really comes into place.

00:47:33
Speaker 5: I'll do it, but first I have to say this to Bruce

00:47:35
Kirk captain Kirk, send me a direct message.

00:47:38
I'm sending you a sales Street t-shirt for your comment that I

00:47:40
shot the charlatan.

00:47:41
That is the absolute best comment, any event, I've ever

00:47:45
seen from any human.

00:47:46
Bruce, if you can hear me, send me a message and I'm sending

00:47:49
you Tales, truth, golf balls and t-shirt.

00:47:52
Okay, that's as good as it gets today.

00:47:55
You just made my day.

00:47:56
Captain Kirk A Carson asked me about accountability and what

00:48:00
that looks like.

00:48:01
I had a mentor who was my sales manager and then was my

00:48:06
business partner, named Donnie Williams.

00:48:08
Guy was freaking brilliant, love salespeople, understood the

00:48:11
heart of the salesperson but didn't like to micromanage.

00:48:14
He came up with this framework that helps you do great

00:48:17
accountability without micromanaging and killing

00:48:20
someone's freedom.

00:48:21
It's this little three-part framework.

00:48:23
I introduced it in Sales Management, simplified eight

00:48:26
years ago in Chapter 20.

00:48:28
What I say is in Chapter 3 here I say your most of all the

00:48:33
things I could have put in the first chapter, I was given

00:48:34
advice.

00:48:35
Chapter 1 says congratulations, you got the most important job

00:48:38
in the world.

00:48:38
You lead the team that drives revenue.

00:48:40
Chapter 2 says your new job ain't nothing like your old job,

00:48:43
buckle up.

00:48:44
That's the winning through your people kind of transition we

00:48:46
talked about.

00:48:47
Then, the very first chapter that I get into coaching, it's

00:48:50
Chapter 3.

00:48:51
I say your most important job is making sure your people do

00:48:54
their job.

00:48:55
I went a little fresher and deeper in a simpler way.

00:48:59
I explained this progression, results, pipeline activity.

00:49:04
We all know that activity drives pipeline.

00:49:08
If the person is talented and has skill, pipeline drives

00:49:11
results.

00:49:11
But where my mentor, donnie, was so brilliant, he flipped

00:49:14
that on its head and the meeting always starts with results.

00:49:17
Let's see where you stand.

00:49:18
How are you doing?

00:49:19
I'll show you how you're doing.

00:49:20
Let's look at where you stand on the team.

00:49:21
Where you're against your plan, against last year, you spend a

00:49:24
minute or two looking at results .

00:49:25
If they're great, you cheer.

00:49:26
If they're not, you look at the sales person and go, hey, what

00:49:29
happened?

00:49:29
You ranked eight out of nine people on our team.

00:49:32
What's going on?

00:49:32
You let them sweat it a little bit, because the job of a sales

00:49:35
manager is to transfer the burden for results from our

00:49:38
shoulder to the producer's shoulder.

00:49:40
The majority of this accountability meeting is spent

00:49:43
looking at the pipeline, because that's the lifeblood of the

00:49:45
business.

00:49:45
What's your coverage?

00:49:47
Are there enough deals in here.

00:49:48
Let's do some math together, not coaching the deal, but just

00:49:51
looking at numbers, data, not emotional data.

00:49:54
Then I like to ask what did you create?

00:49:57
What's new?

00:49:57
What are we working on?

00:49:58
We weren't working on it.

00:49:58
Of the longer-term deals, which did you advance?

00:50:02
What I'm telling you as sales leaders if you go through

00:50:04
results and you go through the pipeline with everybody every

00:50:07
month, there's nowhere to hide.

00:50:08
Sometimes you get with a sales person and after you've gone

00:50:13
through the pipeline, you look at them and they look at you and

00:50:15
they're like there ain't enough in here, is there?

00:50:17
Not only are you missing your number this quarter or last

00:50:20
month, we're looking at the current pipeline and there's not

00:50:24
enough business in here for you to make a number for this month

00:50:26
.

00:50:26
And now I'm concerned and I'm not cool with you failing.

00:50:30
Open up the CRM.

00:50:31
Grab me your business plan, show me the target list and get

00:50:34
your calendar.

00:50:34
Tell me what you did last month and this week and next week.

00:50:39
What is on the docket for you?

00:50:40
Because I'm concerned because your results stink and your

00:50:43
pipeline's weak.

00:50:44
I don't have anywhere else to turn my mentor, donnie.

00:50:47
Where his brilliance comes in is you.

00:50:49
Don't even ask that question until they've forced it to,

00:50:53
because the results of the pipeline led you to the

00:50:55
conclusion they're either not trying, which is a big problem,

00:50:59
or sometimes worse, there is a lot of activity but they don't

00:51:02
have the skill or the business acumen to turn those activities,

00:51:06
conversations, into real opportunities.

00:51:08
So, carson, thanks for asking.

00:51:10
I think we have two big levers coaching developing our people,

00:51:14
coaching the deal, coaching the skill, coaching life and

00:51:18
accountability, shining the light of truth on their actual

00:51:21
result and their pipeline.

00:51:22
And if we would do a better job with these two levers, we could

00:51:26
move the needle on culture results, regardless of who's on

00:51:29
our team.

00:51:30
So that's my strong opinion, love it.

00:51:35
Speaker 4: Love it.

00:51:37
Speaker 2: And I want to spotlight one comment that we

00:51:40
had a few minutes ago and, as we kind of wrap up here, one of

00:51:43
the things that Tim said is that you know, and we touched on

00:51:46
this right we talked about data with data and customer or

00:51:50
spreadsheets and all of that.

00:51:51
Mike, as I listened to you and I've been listening over the

00:51:54
last, you know, even the last few minutes what's hit me is and

00:51:58
maybe this is more in the tech world, but there's a confusion

00:52:00
between RevOps, or revenue operations, and sales management

00:52:03
and sales leadership, and you know, as you peel those two

00:52:09
apart, those are two very different jobs and very

00:52:11
different responsibilities that I think it all gets mashed up

00:52:14
together into one thing.

00:52:17
Speaker 5: Tom, no one is talking about what he just said.

00:52:19
I remember he said it that way, like that's a brilliant

00:52:21
assessment, because what's happened?

00:52:23
This is what I've seen, the big tech companies and you know

00:52:25
tech is like 10% of my business.

00:52:27
I'm in the industrial world, I'm in a lot of other places,

00:52:30
but I'm in enough tech companies and I get out to California

00:52:32
enough to have this feel.

00:52:35
There's always this confusion between the forecast and the

00:52:37
pipeline, and particularly if it's a public company and Carson

00:52:41
lives in this world, so he Carson correct me if I misspeak

00:52:45
but what's?

00:52:46
Because everyone's got short-term thinking and they got

00:52:48
to make the quarter and the CFO is freaking out and sending out

00:52:51
spreadsheets to the EVP of sales, who's then sending it

00:52:54
down to the front lines, the RVPs, and like it all.

00:52:57
It all the shit goes downhill.

00:52:58
Everyone is running around nuts talking about what they call

00:53:02
the outlook or the forecast, what deals are going to close

00:53:05
for the quarter.

00:53:06
That is not the same conversation I just articulated,

00:53:09
where you sit someone down and go, hey, would you put the

00:53:11
pipeline and what are we working and what did you advance?

00:53:13
Because that's the accountability conversation and

00:53:16
that gets completely lost in the tech or public company world

00:53:19
where I have to make the quarter .

00:53:21
No one's thinking about the pipeline and the health, they're

00:53:23
talking about the forecast.

00:53:24
And the way you just articulated that, where Rebops

00:53:27
gets confused with sales management, I think is

00:53:29
absolutely brilliant.

00:53:32
Speaker 3: I think most of the whether or not I'm going to make

00:53:35
the quarter was determined last quarter or the quarter before

00:53:38
that, based on what I put in the pipeline.

00:53:42
Speaker 4: But that's the way you think about it and the

00:53:44
problem is not enough people think about it right.

00:53:46
You see, too often companies, there's two weeks to go before

00:53:49
the quarter and all sales activity let me rephrase it the

00:53:57
right sales activity just gets thrown out the door and

00:54:01
everybody goes into fire drill to try and close deals.

00:54:05
And then they wonder why their customers are so fricking

00:54:09
confused as to really who they are and where the conversation

00:54:12
is going to go, because they think, oh, we're going to offer

00:54:14
you a 20% discount, but you got to close by this date and it

00:54:19
completely changes the relationship with their buyers

00:54:22
and their reputation and everything else, because it was

00:54:24
pushed down for a fire drill.

00:54:27
Speaker 3: Oh, it's hilarious because I'm the opposite of most

00:54:28
tech sellers and when I first started selling in tech, what I

00:54:32
hear from a lot of customers was you know, you're the biggest

00:54:34
check, right, I don't give you anymore.

00:54:36
Or the only time you ever show up is when you want our money.

00:54:39
So I try to take the most counterintuitive approach, to

00:54:41
say things like hey, I, it's my job to ensure that you're privy

00:54:45
to all the resources that you're entitled to because of your

00:54:47
significant investment.

00:54:48
And lo and behold, I could get any meeting I wanted because I

00:54:51
showed up with that mentality and that mantra zero tech

00:54:54
background.

00:54:54
So I started bringing in all the smart people.

00:54:56
I knew the smart people and I was successful because I was

00:54:59
resourceful, because of relationships, and that's it.

00:55:02
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I don't want don't lose this point.

00:55:04
And brand is little hand gesture was exactly the point,

00:55:07
and this is what's lost today.

00:55:08
With like a mentoring, you flip the whole thing on its head.

00:55:12
It wasn't about carcin and microsoft anymore, it was about

00:55:15
the client.

00:55:16
Your whole point, in the way you message to them and the way

00:55:20
you came across, is I'm here to work with you and I want to

00:55:22
maximize your outcome.

00:55:23
It was completely selfless in your sales approach and I mean

00:55:28
we all see it today with sales people.

00:55:30
There are people with business acumen and the presence that

00:55:32
understand how to come across like a consultant and a value

00:55:35
creator, but the majority of people in sales roles do not

00:55:38
sound like you sound.

00:55:39
I'm here because I'm under pressure to get a deal and I

00:55:43
gotta figure out what pain you might have.

00:55:44
So let me torture you because I gotta get you a proposal,

00:55:47
because I have a need to get a deal done, not when are you

00:55:50
struggling and what's going on?

00:55:51
By the way, your client I wanna make sure you're maximizing

00:55:54
your, your bed from being our client, like that's a night and

00:55:57
day difference.

00:55:57
Speaker 4: I don't know, brandon , you know what you want, like

00:55:59
this yeah, exactly.

00:56:01
And that all goes right back to your, your book, right?

00:56:04
We as managers?

00:56:05
They're not equipped To do the right thing at the right time

00:56:10
and stay the course.

00:56:11
And what I love I think I say this a lot times what I've

00:56:15
learned from carcin, what carcin does really well, is simply

00:56:19
this he just shifts the perspective, just enough, and it

00:56:24
completely changes the story, the narrative in the

00:56:26
conversation.

00:56:28
Speaker 3: Everything's gotta be all about the client.

00:56:29
I mean, it blows my mind sometimes that more people don't

00:56:34
take that approach or talk like that or sound like that,

00:56:37
because that's how a small town kid like me, a clown like me,

00:56:40
became the top Social seller in the biggest brand in the world.

00:56:43
Like you know, anybody can do it.

00:56:45
I'm not that special.

00:56:48
Speaker 4: You are marty mcflane junior you are.

00:56:50
Speaker 5: You are dreamy, don't forget you are dreamy, I want

00:56:54
to add one one thirty second point to carcin's wrap up

00:56:57
because I think it's so illustrative for what sales

00:56:59
managers need to be doing.

00:57:00
If we as leaders would spend more time in the field and in

00:57:05
customer calls and prepping for calls and debriefing after them

00:57:09
with our people, we can help them become the type of seller

00:57:12
that carcin is and why he's been so successful.

00:57:16
It was that brand, is that flip ?

00:57:17
Because if you're out there on your own, you don't even know

00:57:21
you're doing it, you don't see it.

00:57:22
But if your mentors with you and they care that you're

00:57:25
modeling for you or they challenge you about it, and that

00:57:28
changes performance.

00:57:29
So Salute, salute the whole conversation yeah, well, thank

00:57:34
you, my carcin.

00:57:35
Speaker 2: Did this live up to your, to your expectations for

00:57:38
your birthday episode?

00:57:39
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go out there and watch this again, as I

00:57:41
have a piece of cake and play with the dog and hang out with

00:57:45
the family.

00:57:46
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think the only thing left was tom was

00:57:50
gonna sing happy birthday, was gonna do a solo before we went

00:57:53
out.

00:57:53
Less, less mic.

00:57:55
Speaker 2: Mr president style yeah, no, I let lia do that.

00:58:00
She did a better job.

00:58:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all downhill from the cake today,

00:58:05
you guys, I did yourselves.

00:58:06
So, my, I don't even know if I can come back next week after

00:58:11
the.

00:58:11
How high of a show.

00:58:12
Speaker 5: This was the best I think you'll figure it out.

00:58:14
I think you'll figure it out.

00:58:15
Yeah.

00:58:16
Speaker 4: And my give a give a little pitch to your, your, your

00:58:20
, next event.

00:58:21
In it, lana says it's.

00:58:22
I was thinking it's next year, but it's right around the corner

00:58:25
is it is.

00:58:25
Speaker 5: We booked all the dates.

00:58:26
We keep going back to lana cuz they're so good to us.

00:58:28
People love that venue and we do three, four times a year.

00:58:33
Yeah, we need to come over.

00:58:34
We might.

00:58:35
We might have a little room for special guest brain, and so now

00:58:38
that we're buddies, I think we should have a conversation with

00:58:41
him okay, then you think carcin's gotta come to.

00:58:44
Three or four times a year I do an event called supercharger

00:58:47
sales leadership.

00:58:48
We limited to fifty people.

00:58:50
It's a premium venue.

00:58:52
We've currently been doing the last seven of them at the

00:58:54
portion experience center, which is truly the end of the runway

00:58:57
In atlanta at the airport, so any human can get there on one

00:59:00
flight.

00:59:00
We have people come truly from Dubai, we have people come from

00:59:03
london and then all over the us and it's just a full day

00:59:06
drinking from the fire hose on the keys from sales manager

00:59:10
simplified and now from the first time, manager sales and

00:59:14
some people come for two days and they stay in, drive cars the

00:59:16
next day and you get extra coaching and some other things

00:59:18
like that and it's.

00:59:19
Those are the most satisfying days of my career because

00:59:22
everyone in the room wants to be there and they bring their

00:59:24
heart and they share their challenges and frustrations and

00:59:27
we group problem solve and we we go deep on the topics we've

00:59:30
already addressed.

00:59:31
So you can find out more about the supercharger event or other

00:59:34
things I'm doing for sales leaders at Mike Weinberg dot com

00:59:37
and there's a little events tab on the menu.

00:59:39
You can Read out right there can I?

00:59:42
Speaker 4: can I book the first slot in that event, since I

00:59:44
don't have to get on a plane?

00:59:46
Speaker 5: you can call me a little side conversation here.

00:59:50
Speaker 2: Perfect, right, well, and I.

00:59:51
There's a couple questions about getting the recording.

00:59:53
Definitely also, if you want to get any of the past recordings,

00:59:57
it's pod Social selling two, two dot two zero.

01:00:01
Social selling two zero dot com and it's on all the podcast.

01:00:05
So please go go subscribe to social selling two dot.

01:00:09
Oh, and we're also on youtube and you get the replay here on

01:00:13
linkedin as well.

01:00:14
All right, well again, thanks again, mike.

01:00:16
Happy birthday to Carson.

01:00:18
Get the book at the book happy birthday to Carson.

01:00:21
Speaker 5: Go buy yourself a copy this book for Carson's

01:00:23
birthday.

01:00:24
Speaker 2: That's right, my publisher and I thank you,

01:00:27
carson.

01:00:27
Wrap us up here my thank you.

01:00:30
Speaker 3: Safe travels to my friend always a pleasure to see

01:00:33
you and Brandon tom man, thank you for a special show and for

01:00:38
everybody that was on.

01:00:39
Thank you all.

01:00:40
Steven, saw your comment good to see a brother.

01:00:42
Thanks for calling today and until next time happy social

01:00:46
selling.

01:00:46
Thanks everyone everybody.

01:00:50
Speaker 2: Hey tom Burton here and I wanted to personally thank

01:00:52
you for listening, for watching today's episode of social

01:00:56
selling two dot.

01:00:57
Oh.

01:00:57
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01:01:01
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01:01:02
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01:01:06
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01:01:09
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01:01:13
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01:01:17
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01:01:21
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01:01:25
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01:01:27
Thank you again for listening and I look forward to seeing you

01:01:31
in our next episode.